Lore talk:Names/Archive 1

This is an archive of past Lore talk:Names discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

SI Names

Would anyone mind if I added the SI names to the Oblivion ones? — Unsigned comment by 64.131.11.144 (talk)

Whew, added all SI and KoTN names. — Unsigned comment by 64.131.11.144 (talk)

Thanks for all that work :) If you want extra extra credit, there are also a few more NPCs from the other mods ;) --Nephele^Talk 23:16, 28 September 2007 (EDT)

Weird thing with Khajiit names

How do I fix the wierd thing with Khajiit male names? — Unsigned comment by 64.131.11.144 (talk)

There was an extra space at the start of the line that needed to be deleted. Any time a line starts with a space, the wiki assumes the line is code and therefore formats it differently. --Nephele^Talk 22:41, 28 September 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for the help with Khajiits.

Dunmer Names

An important note concerning Dunmeri family names: it would seem that the older and more traditional Dunmeri method of presenting names (perhaps originally a Chimeri practice) is to list the family/house name before the personal/individual name, e.g. Dagoth Ur (Ur of the house of Dagoth), Sotha Sil (Sil of the house of Sotha), Hlaalu Helseth (Helseth of the house of Hlaalu), etc.

204.78.172.3 11:08, 29 October 2007 (EDT)

Maybe true, but there's so few examples of this that it almost doesn't matter. (Indoril Nerevar is the only other one I can think of.) 3 out of 4 of these examples are essentially deities with long, extended lives (or a reincarnation in Nerevar's case). The other one is a King, and it's likely that before he was King, he was known just as Helseth, and the "Hlaalu" got tacked on when he became King - it's not uncommon in real life history for people to change their names upon ascension to a throne or other major leadership position. (Look at the Papacy for a modern example.) His mother, Barenziah, doesn't seem to have a family name either... --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 12:59, 29 October 2007 (EDT)

This not true, such names were mentioned extensively in the book Poison Song wich takes place in the aftermath of the Battle of Red Mountain, proving it's an ancient radition, so something about it should be added... Kertaw48 19:57, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

But doesn't that make it worth nothing, as a 'tradition' of the Dunmer? Incidentally, Dagoth Ur was originally Lord Voryn Dagoth; I don't know whether you'd consider 'Dagoth Ur' to be his title, but I suppose it could be the same situation with Sotha Sil. Even more incidentally, Dagoth Ur addresses the player at least once as Lord Nerevar Indoril. --Gaebrial 13:03, 29 October 2007 (EDT)

Actually, it's also occurred to me that the entire house of Dagoth still uses this form - these have been omitted from the Names listing because they're all considered creatures rather than NPCs in the Construction Set, but theoretically, they were once Dunmer as well. I'm also not sure what the relation between the lesser Dagoths and Dagoth Ur is, precisely. The Ash Vampires are all Dagoth Ur's brothers. But with the Ascended Sleepers and Ash Ghouls with Dagoth names, I don't think it's ever specified exactly what their relationship is. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 13:21, 29 October 2007 (EDT)

Daggerfall Names

I wanted to add Breton and Redguard names from Daggerfall, but I'm having a slight problem. Names seem to be randomly assigned to people, so there's no way to tell if the name is supposed to be for men, women or both. I found a man and woman who were named Belladyssa, and I found a man named Carolyn. Should I forget about first names and just put in all the Breton surnames I've found? I think Arena has the same "problem." --Alcaeus

That sounds like the best plan. Do you have a full set of names or are you just adding the ones you come across? –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 05:13, 30 April 2008 (EDT)

I'm just adding the ones I come across. Edit: I just figured something out. ;) Turns out that all the surnames have 13 prefixes and suffixes (Well, I've seen 13 so far). The surname Buckinging is a little odd. I'm going to double-check and see if that's right. --Alcaeus

Dremoric names?

Could anyone possibly come up with or find names for Dremora? And i'm not just talking about making up names, maybe there's text or examples somewhere?

The only one name i can think of at the moment is: Kathutet (Dremora in Paradise)

→XHellxKnighTx 01:42, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

I don't remember seeing anything about their names. All I know is that they are identified by their rank, and that may be the closest thing to a name. Figgy 01:49, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

You're right, those are the dremora knights you encounter whilst closing oblivion gates (Dremora ?Rank?), but then i've found another name here... Orthe. Hmm, I think i'll do some research into this. -XHellxKnighTx 01:58, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

The way I see it is that it's one of those things where there are the generic Dremora, and then the few important ones that have names. I wouldn't spend too much time on this, as it seems like a dead end. Figgy 02:01, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

One of the main reasons why this page exists is to help players who are trying to name a character, in which case it seems reasonable to limit the list to playable races. If we really do want to expand to include non-playable races, then Dremora actually seems like a strange race to start with, given that it's probably the race for which we know the fewest names (at least of races that have appeared in games). Names for Dark Seducers and Golden Saints are more common (including some repeat appearances from games other than Oblivion, e.g., Staada). --Nephele^Talk 17:15, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Argonian Names

Based on NPC dialogues from Oblivion, in many cases Argonians' English names were given to them, without any apparent regard for their Black Marsh name:

They call me 'Hauls-Ropes-Faster'. I don't care. They can't pronounce my Black Marsh name, anyway.
Cat-Face. Yes, that's right. That's what they call me. Because they can't pronounce my Black Marsh name, I guess... and, supposedly, because my face looks like a cat. Don't see it, myself. Must be a joke. Don't get the joke, either... but the customer is always right.

Therefore it seems very unlikely in these cases that their English names are translations of their Argonian names. I've modified the section on Argonian names accordingly. --Nephele^Talk 21:10, 27 July 2008 (EDT)

No regard to the real name?:: Not always true. Haj-Ej is the names of Hides-His-Eyes. The similarity is automatically realized by high INT characters. — Unsigned comment by Temple-Zero (talk • contribs) on 27 July 2008

My original post said that in many cases, not always, Argonian's English names are unrelated to their Black Marsh names. Please try to read what was said a bit more carefully instead of trying to dispute a point that was never made. It might also help if you had read the section of the article that has been revised, where it still provides the example that Hides-His-Eyes is a translation for Haj-Ej. But the article's previous statement that "The English names are just translations of their Argonian hyphenated names" has been modified and the section expanded to allow for other possibilities. --Nephele^Talk 23:32, 27 July 2008 (EDT)

Translating Names

Is there any way to match the Black Marsh names of Argonians to their English names ? — Unsigned comment by 97.102.109.201 (talk)

Tribunal names

Are the names from Tribunal added to the list? If not can I or someone else add them? Kertaw48 20:01, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok, since nobody answered I'll take that as a yes...

Additional question, and I hope someone answers this: Should I put them in their own section(Tribunal) or just add them in the existing one?

Hello, sorry that no one answered your question. The answer to your first question is yes, they seem to be listed here, but there may be a few missing. If you find one that is missing, feel free to add it :).

As for your second question, I don´t know what anyone else thinks, but I do not think a seperate section is necessary. Tribunal and Bloodmoon are just expansions and not seperate games, so they might just as well be listed under Morrowind. Hope that answers your question! Kalrot 14:35, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! I guess I'll start working on it... Kertaw48 09:41, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

So now, 2 weeks later I finaly remebered the project, and finished adding the DUNMER names only, at least for now, and I have new questions already:

Should I add the names like Barenziah and Helseth which appear in several games? I ask this because the name "Dram" has been mentioned in both Redguard and Morrowind, but not from the same person. Adding the names wouldn't hurt but it isn't that important either, so I'm puzzled.
Should I add the names like Gee-pop? It's not a real name, but what is then? I myself wouldn't add them, just want to make sure what everyone else thinks.
Should I add the names of the Black Dart Gang? Well, this is not realy the question of should I, rather than where should I add them. For example: "Black Dart Draren". Is Draren his first or last name?

Any answered question would be appreciated... Kertaw48 16:13, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Hello again, and thank you for your contributions with the Tribunal names. Your help is greatly appreciated. Now for your questions:

I do think they should be listed. A few other names for characters that appear in more than one game are listed in both (M'aiq the Liar appears in both Morrowind and Oblivion, for example, and the name M'aiq is listed for both Morrowind and Oblivion). We are, after all, listing all the names that appear in the games, not a making a list of individuals. I don´t think it matters that much if they happen to belong to the same individual as long as it is from a different game.
I do not think it should be listed either. "Gee-pop" is almost certainly a nickname and not an actual given name, and we should probably not list nicknames (unless, possibly, if they are used as "actual" names. But that is a different discussion). I think his family name should still be counted, however.
I´m pretty sure they are first names, so they should be listed as such. I could be wrong, but they sound more like first names to me. It would be more logical to use your first name in this situation too.

Hope that helps, good luck! Kalrot 01:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

"Redguard" names

I noticed someone removed the names from "ESA: Redguard" I added to the list, with the motivation "Not common (single occurences)". While I agree with that very statement, it is true that these names are single occurrences, I must object. As the list here tells us, the majority of in-game names are "single occurences". There are very few people in each game that share names, even between games it is quite uncommon. Only Dunmer names are somewhat reoccurring. By that logic, we should remove EVERY name here that only occurs once.

I´m sure the person who did it knows what he/she is doing, and I respect him/her for it. But the way I see it, there are simply too few shared names in the games that we can only list the "common" ones. Then what names are considered common? Should we not simply list ALL the occurring in-game names, and compile them by frequency? All names from Morrowind+expansions and Oblivion+expansions are listed as far as I can tell, so why exclude those from the other games? Yes, the Argonian name "Dreekius" from Redguard is a single occurrence, but so is every Argonian name as far as I can tell. The name "Cyrus" appears in both Redguard and Oblivion. My point is, we should not discriminate the spin-off games just because they are not part of the main series. Unless Bethesda has stated otherwise, Redguard is as much canon as Oblivion.

In conclusion, we should either only list the common ones and remove all single occurrences (quite a few), or we should list ALL names with no discrimination. Kalrot 17:40, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The removal was my doing. I think I agree instead on removing all the single appearances of names. Just having a list of all names that appear in total in all the games seems somewhat unnecessary to me. The premise of the article is to give the reader an idea of the common names. If a given name then only appears once, it's not common enough. Ofcourse, if that results in only a few names remaining for one particular race, the premise may need to be adjusted.

Perhaps it would be an idea to only give a set of (say 10) examples for every name. The premise would simply promise the reader a few typical names for a particular race (since they all have different characteristics), but we refrain adding all names to the articles. The one who may choose the names to list is the simply the one who would be willing to update the article. :) --Timenn-<talk> 13:00, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I think it would be much more useful to update the premise of the page to listing all names than to remove nearly all of the content. The appendices are like a reference section of "facts", and picking a few names that should be considered "common" for a race would no longer be as helpful. While it's true the description says "common", it has included the single occurrences from the beginning. I have used this page many times when naming characters and I can't be the only one who would sorely miss it. I think the Redguard names should be added and the description changed to something like "This is a list of all the known first and last names..." VIROCONIUM 03:49, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree, I think we should just go ahead and use all the names found in the games, books, etc. I don't see how it could be detrimental to what the wiki is about. And plus, what is the definition of common in this case? –Elliot ^talk 11:32, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for clearing that up Timenn. Sorry if I came off as a little rude earlier, but you have explained your reasons and now I understand. :)

Your point is very valid, the premise of the article is to list "common" names, and the solution you are proposing would work well for the premise. But I agree with the above users that changing the premise instead to listing all names would be a better solution. Only listing a handful of names would make the article much shorter and could help give you an idea of common names, but there would be SO many examples excluded that it could give something of a false picture. As I said earlier, there are actually very few names held by more than one person so far in the games, which makes it difficult to pick out common ones. There has not been a single recurring Argonian name so far as I can tell for example. Listing all the names would work both ways, because if you list all names, you can make much more reasonable assumptions of a common name by comparing different names (name structure etc.). Giving the reader all the available data will also make it much easier for the reader to make an inductive guess on common names. If a name is only encountered once, and sounds different from others, then you can see here that the name is probably not very common, but it does at least exist. And let us not forget that the people we encounter in the games are but a fraction of the total population in the empire. Unless we will get a game in the future that covers ALL of the empire in scope (not randomized like Arena) or Bethesda releases some sort of official statement or appendix on naming convention, there is no way we can accurately determine common names right now. Listing all known names will make it easier to make reasonable assumptions at least. Also, as user Viroconium said, some people do find it helpful to list all names for other reasons. So it would work for either end.

The main problem with this solution however could be that the article may get REALLY huge and difficult to navigate. If so, perhaps we could split it into smaller articles per race (Altmer names, Dunmer names, Imperial names etc.) and one for other "smaller" races (Dwemer, Daedra, Goblin etc.). Any thoughts?

Anyway, just giving my view on the issue. If a limited article of common names is preferred by users, that works fine too. :) Kalrot 14:42, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't have that much problems with the premise of the page being changed. I agree that would require a different setup as well, the individual pages for example. Those page could also try to address the name similarities between the name, as you can usually recognize the race of a character by the name (if you're adept at it). --Timenn-<talk> 15:45, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

That sounds good, maybe I will start working on it soon. Thanks for your feedback. Kalrot 17:55, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Since we seem to have reached consensus (or, at least, no direct opposition) to the proposed split of the article, I'll start working on it now. Feel free to help out as I´m far from an expert on neither the subject nor this wiki. :) Kalrot 21:46, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

There, created seperate pages for all the major races and relocated all their content there. I put links to them on this page instead. Hopefully this solution will work out. Left the unplayable races here as I was unsure whether they are worth a seperarte article or not. Thanks Kalrot 23:28, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Book names

I'm talking of course about the names which we find in books.

I think they should be added to the existing names, at least the ones which we know to which race they belong... Any thoughts? Kertaw48 15:48, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

I have been thinking about that too. I too think they should be incorporated in some way, but I wonder how? Should we create a separate "Lore" category for them (as with "Daggerfall", "Morrowind", "Oblivion" etc.) or should they be listed for the game they are mentioned in as x0 (mentioned only). But then how should we list names that are both mentioned and appears on NPCs? Also, should we list them if they are mentioned in books despite the fact that they appear in the games also and we know for sure they refer to the same individual? Crassius Curio is for example mentioned in books. Should his name be listed in both categories, and for every book the name appears in as well? Kalrot 23:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Definitely new section, "Lore" would do quite nicely, but I don't think that people such as master trainers, house councillors and other people who appear in the game should be added. Only historic people and characters from stories, you know the ones who were not added before. Also, we should write somewhere that these names are not neccesarily in use anymore... Kertaw48 12:32, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea! I can´t speak with any kind of authority, but since no one else has bothered to reply I'll say go for it. I agree that we do not need to list anyone that does appear in the games in person though. I do however wonder how we should list people that are "mentioned" only in their respective games. Llevule Andrano for instance is mentioned in the Gra-Muzgob Informant quest, should he be listed in the regular "Morrowind" section (his skull does appear, after all) or in the new "Lore" section? Kalrot 22:42, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Xivilai?

I know there aren't many named Xivilai in game, but would it be worth adding them to the list? Walbert 04:28, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be. Would you like to do that, Walbert? Darkdoom227 04:36, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Dwemer names...

Can't somebody add Dwemer names on this site? There are few identified Dwemers, for example Radac Stungnthumz. 95.49.102.46 17:27, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

You can go ahead and add them in. I think it is a good addition. I've only played Oblivion, and am not familiar with dwemer history. Vesna 18:20, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

The only other one I can think of is Yagrum Bagarn. rpeh •T•C•E• 19:12, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I've added the ones I could find. There are still some book names like Kagrenac and Dumac, which only appear in books, notes or (rarely) in in-game conversations, but this opens the book disscusion again... Well if nobody has any objections I think I'll add them when I find them all/most. --Kertaw48 21:04, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

While we're at it, any clue on how to make the page look better? It is very hard to read right now, cause you have a heading, a subheading, another subheader, and then a couple of normal-text names. Maybe a table? Vesna 22:04, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, the look of the page is kind of bad, even though I've tried to improve it. We could either do the table, which (from what I've heard) is a LOT of work, or create a new page for the unplayable races and decrease the level of all the headlines. It would definetly look better, but I don't think that it would make a large enough article for it's own page. Until someone with enough "willpower" to create the table comes along or more information about unplayable races is gathered, I think we should leave it be. --Kertaw48 13:40, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I'd basically do what Kertaw48 said: take off the existing "Playable Races" and "Unplayable Races" headlines, and make the "Dremora", "Dwemer" etc level 2 headlines. Maybe move the others up a level too. rpeh •T•C•E• 17:36, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

←Well Kalrot seems to have solved the problem, although I think that the playable races should be keept on top of the page. Back to the subject, I have decided to add the Dwemer names from the lore. There are some which I've left out, most notably the names from Marobar Sul's books whose theme didn't originate from an actual Dwemer story(The Ransom of Zarek, The Seed, The Importance of Where, The Song of the Alchemists and The Dowry). In the publisher's note of these books, it states that the name in these books are actually Dwemerized versions of some other names. Also, I'm not sure whether or not to add the name of Dalen-Zanchu, since it could be Dunmer. These are the books from which I've taken the names:

If you find any other book with Dwemer names or think that I've missed some, feel free to add them and discuss it here. --Kertaw48 12:48, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Chimeri names.

Hey, I'm the same guy who proposed Dwemeri names (I have changing IP adress). I added Chimeri names (I'm not sure if that's completed), but I was confused with Lore:Sotha Sil - he has a strange name, I can't just find out if Sotha or Sil is his family name. For example, Voryn Dagoth had a family name as a last name, while Indoril Nerevar had a family name as first name. Can anybody check and improve this? Thanks a lot. 95.49.5.135 03:10, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, supposedly he was the last survivor of House Sotha (the reference is explained here), so I presume that Sotha is his family name and Sil is his given name. If nobody objects, I'm going to put them as such. -- Kertaw48 14:02, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Although he has been sainted, would Veloth be considered a Chimeri name? Or even an Altmeri name? --Subvert 15:16, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

As a slightly different topic under Chimeri names, shouldn't the other great Houses be listed here? From what I've read in lore, the other Houses were in existence at Nerevar's time, so it would make sense to have a listing of the Great House names here as well, reflecting their history.

Veloth was born (and probably named) before the chimer were founded, so it probably is an altmeri name

Aresvallis 17:19, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Arena Names

I've been trying to add Arena names to the list of names, but so far I've been able to confirm race of a grand total of 4 NPCs. I'm not sure, but I assume that most names in Arena are randomly generated like in Daggerfall. However there must be some constant NPCs. Simply by reading the Arena walkthrough articles I've found only 7 names (4 confirmed: Goblins: Golthog, Blubamka, Ulandra, Selene; and 3 non-confirmed: Shalidor, Thelen, Barnabas). Could anyone with a broader knowledge of Arena add the rest? There shouldn't be that many of them... -- Kertaw48 20:35, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not surprised by this; there's almost no coverage of Arena in the lore namespace. The problem with this is that indeed most names are random, and cannot be attributed to any race. If anyone is willing to extract them, I think an "Arena names" subpage should be created. --Legoless 20:43, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

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