User talk:Legoless/Arc 2012a

This is an archive of previous comments on my talk page. Please do not post a message here - use this link to go to the active page instead.

Falkreath PageEdit

Could you please take a look at your last edit to the Falkreath page. The whole "City Summary" template was changed. --Aezay 02:25, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. I was trying to change just the image capitalisation... :/ --Legoless 10:25, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

The Ragged FlagonEdit

Hi. I noticed some of the nice improvements you have made lately. Are you interested in helping me think about the Ragged Flagon place page? I like the screenshot I put there, but I don't think it's the best primary image because it's not easy to see given the size displayed on the page. I just don't have much experience with formatting and feel a little insecure about making decisions about it. I have a couple more screenshots that might be better (at least for now), but I think it might also be nice to keep the one I've already put there as a secondary image. If you are willing to share your thoughts and maybe help me, can you tell me where and how I can upload the other screenshots I have, so you can take a look at them? If you're more interested in other things, of course, don't worry about it. I can experiment with it more on my own at some point. Thanks. --Jreynolds2^Talk 03:17, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Just upload all the images you like to the wiki and number them (e.g., File:SR-place-The Ragged Flagon 02.jpg, etc.). Then you can just put them in a sandbox or link me to them and we can discuss them some more. The Flagon will probably need multiple images in the end anyway for the various stalls that appear, so it might be worth adding a gallery. As for the primary image, I think a picture of the inn itself would be better than the current view across the water, especially considering the missing stalls and the close-up of the two NPCs in the current image, which don't fit too well with standards (although the image fine in its own right, and I'd definitely want it to remain on the page somewhere). Usually, primary images are of a place's exterior, but that obviously isn't applicable to the Flagon. --Legoless 12:57, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

OK. I've succeeded for sure in one step: I created File:SR_place_Ragged_Flagon01.jpg. In trying to create a sandbox, however, I instead messed up the regular SR page, and I'm going to work on fixing that. If you get there first, please go ahead do that for me if you think this image is good enough for now. I think that this is the idea you are talking about: For the bar, it is the best approximation to a formal/main "external" entrance, right? I also created this sandbox. But all of this is pretty new to me,and I'm not sure what to do as a next step.

Maybe by "working on it together," I really meant: You do the work and I will tell you, "That looks good!" (and learn something in the process). It clear from comments on the tangle of pages and constructs that involve (1) the Thieves Guild (as a place), (2) The guild (as a faction), (2) The Ragged Flagon (as a bar), (4) The Ragged Flagon (as the TG HQ), (5) The Ragged Flagon - Cistern as a place, and (6) The Cistern as also part of, or related to, the TG headquarters geographically and/or functionally ... it's going to take time and discussion for something sensible to emerge. Meanwhile, I guess we can build on what we have.

I can't even find the page on the wiki with the original pic I uploaded now. I still have both of them on my PC. --Jreynolds2^Talk 16:08, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Here's the original image. In the future, you can find it in the article's history. The new one is better though, so we might as well leave it off for now. Have you progressed far into the Thieves Guild to start the shops opening up? If not, I can get an image of three of them. (If you don't know what I'm talking about, several vendors set up shop as you do the special jobs for Delvin, and I'm thinking we'll need an image of each stall.) Feel free to upload as many images as you like, although in the end we might not include them all in the gallery. I've also fixed the article's broken image; you had put in the wrong file name. I'm probably not going to get very involved in Skyrim place pages until the Creation Kit comes out and we can get some good data, but I'll have a go at cleaning up the crap on this page once we're decided on the images. Although, to be honest, we should probably wait for it to be merged with Skyrim:Thieves Guild (place) before we begin any other work. --Legoless 16:20, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for straightening that out. I see that you are right: There are a lot of priorities before creating masterpiece pages. I have not progressed far enough in the Thieves Guild to see any shops yet. I tend to play a quest or two in x line and then one or two in y line, etc. I'm really probably best at untangling bad prose, but I see that getting images up on pages is a priority, so I've been doing it pretty much whenever I see a page with no image. If you have any other suggestions, please let me know. I'm enjoying trying to help. --Jreynolds2^Talk 16:37, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Small FavorEdit

Hey Legoless! You’re a wizard with the Lore stuff – and I’m not. When I wrote the page for Forbidden Legend I thought it’d be cool to make some kind of introduction on what is currently known about Gauldur and his beloved sons. Only problem is: the section sucks! Can you read through the section and see if you can make it better? Thanks in advance! --Krusty 23:33, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I'll try to get around to it. I'm not sure how much I can expand on it though, seeing as its more like a section on rumours rather than an actual lore article. --Legoless 16:43, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Haha, no it's not that serious. My idea was to give some sort of brief explanation on the info found within Lost Legends, without giving too much away. The wording, however, annoys me - so I figured you could make it a bit more interesting. :) --Krusty 21:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Image for Thieves GuildEdit

Maybe this File:SR_place_The_Ragged_Flagon.jpg for Skyrim:Thieves_Guild_(faction) ? I kind of like the pic, especially if it can be enlarged a bit on a page. Or maybe add it to Ragged Flagon later. I'm not sure if it's correctly named now, and I'm not sure how to upload it to the Thieves Guild page because of that page's formatting. What think you? --Jreynolds2^{Talk Contrib E-mail} 10:52, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree, that image would look good on the faction page. I've added it (see how I did it here). Image naming is kinda out the window at the moment, but it will be renamed eventually. Fixing the size of an image thumbnail (i.e., by enlarging it) is usually avoided, as "normal" thumbnail sizes can be customised by the user. --Legoless 19:21, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Thanks for showing me how. I got it. Actually, now I think it's not the best image for that page, but at least there's something instead of nothing for the moment. --Jreynolds2^{Talk Contrib E-mail} 09:46, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

IndentingEdit

Hello! I saw you'd indented a post of mine (which I in a knee-jerk reaction unindented). I at first thought that I was adhering to what was described in Editing Pages, as it says

"If you are replying to a previous editor, you should indent your comments using a single colon (:) at the start of your paragraph. (Or if the previous editor's comments were indented, use one more colon than the previous editor)."

I thought since I was replying to Eddie The Head, he's the "previous editor" and so I should indent one more level than his post. Then I checked out the admin board, and it seems everyone just indents one level more than the previous person who posted, even if they clearly aren't replying to that person and it's in the form of:

I think we should do XYZ

Good idea!

I Hate it

It's so-so

I don't have an issue with it being one way or the other, but I like to be correct. :) Would you mind clarifying the proper style? Thanks! -Vardis 02:21, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

You've got it. As long as one person is commenting after a different person, the indentation should move right, so the only exception is if you're supplementing one of your own posts, or out-denting (done because there have been too many indents and/or because you wish to pursue a different facet of an existing conversation and want it to "stand out"). Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 02:35, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, unless a conversation's format or content implies that doing otherwise is encouraged, all new comments to a conversation should appear at the bottom of the conversation, then if needed the audience or person you are particularly addressing can be specified. I don't know if this stuff is written down somewhere, that's just generally how we do things. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 02:41, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Yet more stuff: If you do feel the need to insert into someone's conversation (sometimes done to respond to a specific point), typically, you would indent one more than necessary to make it clear that this is an insertion. Some people like to use bullets or → as well. Personally, I find that to be more of a nuisance than anything, but it's not unheard of. Usually I think just saying "In answer to XYZ..." which makes it clear that you're only responding to that point and not the whole post, and doesn't confuse people by inserting into the middle of someone else's post.

Finally, to answer Minor Edit's implied question, we've got a little bit at Help:Editing Pages, but when in doubt, we usually fall back on Wikipedia's rules, like Wikipedia:Help:Talk. Oh and Legoless, you didn't really want to talk on your own talk page anyway, did you? :Þ – Robin Hood↝talk 02:49, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thanks! Wikipedia's rules actually say to not indent each time, just one more than the person you are responding to (see their 2nd example, which is eerily like mine - I swear I didn't plagiarise!), and the wording in Help:Editing Pages is in line with that as well, but both conflict with the style I was actually seeing in use here, so I wanted to be sure. I'll make an attempt to reword the instructions on the help page here when I think I can do so without confusing the matter further (unless someone beats me to it). Thanks again. -Vardis 05:42, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm...methinks Wikipedia needs updating! In truth, both styles used to be used, but it's been a long time since I've seen regular use of the "one more than who you're replying to" style, on any wiki. Could be that it's just not common on the pages I monitor on WP...I don't monitor all that many there. – Robin Hood↝talk 06:42, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't have much else to add here, Minor Edits and Robin Hood seem to have covered it. Just thought I should let it be known that I've seen this. --Legoless 15:52, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Quest or NPC?Edit

Hi, RIM here. I added a bit to this page and I just wanted to know whether or not that Archery practice part should be part of her page or a separate mini-quest page. Thanks. RIM 20:43, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

It might be best to bring it up on the article's talk page. As for my opinion, I'd say it's fine on the NPC page unless there's an actual quest attached to the training. --Legoless 21:14, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Alright I think I'll leave it for now then, thanks. RIM 22:03, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Just to chime in; as I’m certain we will end up following the old OBNPCRP guidelines, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with adding ALL unique dialogue to NPC pages, normal dialogue as well as quest-related. Just make sure it is as complete as you can make it – I’ve already gone overboard on a few pages (like this page) and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. --Krusty 00:57, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Re: Potema ImagesEdit

Hey there! Sorry about that--I didn't realize the image was of something different. Fair enough. Even still, though, wouldn't this image be better? –Eshe^talk 19:45, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

No problems. The above image should definitely replace the one currently in use on Potema's page. --Legoless 20:05, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

It's done :). Thanks for catching that! –Eshe^talk 20:09, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Citation in Game-Space?Edit

Per this edit, did you intend to use {{Fact}}? Or has there been a change in policy relating to using references in game-space that I wasn't aware of? --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 18:38, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

On second thoughts, that probably wasn't the best template to use. I didn't intend for an actual reference to be provided, but the statement about Sovngarde being inside Aetherius sounds incorrect to me. The reference which was later provided has nothing to support the notion. Maybe it might be worth adding a {{Verification needed}} tag instead, although I'd prefer if the sentence was just removed. However, I don't feel I understand the afterlife lore enough to do so. --Legoless 22:09, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Blocking IPsEdit

Hey, I changed the block from one of you blockees from indefinite to 1 year. I've been told it was a bad idea to block IPs indefinitely, unless I'm missing something ~ Dwarfmp 18:52, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

My bad, I remember that now. I was thinking of accounts. Thanks for fixing it! --Legoless 18:56, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Everflowing Ewer Lore PageEdit

I appreciate your help on this lore page. It is far from done, but can you look at it and give me pointers on what else to add. There is bound to be more to add, I just can't think of it. Thanks. --Manic 15:06, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

The in-game quotes aren't appropriate for lorespace. I can rewrite the paragraph on game-related events to be more historical, or you can give it a go yourself. Writing about the book Knightfall in the main text is unnecessary, as the information within should be treated as fact and providing the book as a reference should more than suffice. Finally, this looks like a better image to use. Other than that, I can't think of much else to add other than some minor tweaks which I can fix when you launch the page. --Legoless 15:22, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Just a little something - according to Knightfall, it's the "Everflow Ewer", not the "Everflowing" or "Everlasting" Ewer, as your sandbox states. Kitkat ^{•Talk•Contrib•E-mail} 15:28, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Good point. Legoless, I will need you to change the name of the page to Everflow Ewer. Thanks for that kitkat. --Manic 16:26, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I have made minor changes to the page and it is set up. If you wouldn't mind rewriting the bits you see fit, then I'll paste it onto the page as you will probably change anything I write as it is the first lore page I have attempted. Once I see how you develop this page, I can copy as similar style for the Garridan lore page. --Manic 18:42, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

I've edited the sandbox. The article is ready to launch. --Legoless 18:45, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

PurgingEdit

Does it matter who purges a page. I just 'purged on content 3' for Skyrim:Markarth and it seems to have gone back a few edits. The wikitables also changed colour. Can you check it and tell me if it's ok. I bypassed my cache to check and its the same. The Silencer has spoken^Talk 22:04, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

It looks fine to me. I don't know much about purging, but the wiki has quite a few caching issues so it's nothing out of the ordinary. --Legoless 22:28, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

It displays properly again now, I had to open a new tab and then bypass on that tab. Thanks for looking. The Silencer has spoken^Talk 22:46, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I just checked it myself and Content 3 is running MW 1.19. I'm guessing Dave's experimenting to figure out our MW 1.19 problems. – Robin Hood↝talk 01:40, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Skyrim Concept ArtEdit

Hi Legoless. Just wanted to double-check with you on-wiki before I upload a whole lot of files, since Elliot said it was you and Kiz that came to the decision to upload the Skyrim concept art, but it was done on IRC. In total, there are 701 files totalling 333MB. The edit summary will be "Concept art by the late Adam Adamowicz. Taken from Bethesda's Flickr.", the license will be {{esimage}} and they'll be put into the category Category:Skyrim-Concept Art. For the time being, unless you want to provide me with 700 filenames to rename everything to, the files will be uploaded under "SR-concept-<10-digit hex number>". Does that all sound good, and do we still actually want them all? With Kiz having left, I wanted to make doubly sure. – Robin Hood↝talk 04:16, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

That sounds perfect. The only thing that may be an issue is having 700+ images on a single page, but I guess we'll have to see. The filenames don't really matter; from what I can tell, the Skyrim names are even more nonsensical than the Oblivion ones already uploaded. --Legoless 18:52, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Just a minor thing, but rather than having a separate article with a dedicated ==Gallery== section, we could just link directly to the category. • JA^Talk 18:56, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if that would be a good idea. I've never seen categories used like that before. We already have an article at Skyrim:Concept Art – we could add more subpages as needs be. --Legoless 19:00, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I've seen categories used that way on some sites, but the lack of control over how and what a category displays usually gets in the way pretty quickly. If 700 images on a page is too much, which I'm almost certain it will be, a main page with subpages is probably the best bet.

I'll get working on the programming now. I don't expect it'll take long to do the programming...the uploading is another matter, though. Just due to the amount of information involved, I'll keep it well throttled, so I suspect it'll average somewhere around 3 or 4 images per minute. – Robin Hood↝talk 20:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, I was right, the programming was easy...I'm just getting low-level errors that defy any explanation, it would seem. Since those errors aren't causing a problem, I've told the bot to ignore them and just proceed. This early, it's still a really rough estimate, but we're looking at around 10:30 pm (Eastern) / 2:30 am (UTC) for the uploads to complete. – Robin Hood↝talk 22:23, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Falmeris?Edit

Could you tell me where does the name of Falmer's langauge being just "Falmer" come from exactly? I mean you being the one who did this, I'd reckon you know something about it. -- kertaw48 09:53, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

This dialogue is my reference. As far as I'm aware, it is always referred to as "Falmer" or "the Falmer language", never Falmeris (which would be the more obvious word to use, but compare it to Orcish and "Orsimeris"). --Legoless 17:50, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Mounted combatEdit

Can you check the News page for the proposed update news. Thanks. The Silencer has spoken^Talk 21:49, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I've added the proposed news. Good job. --Legoless 21:58, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Concept Art...Edit

...is over, I reckon *crosses fingers* I've not counter them all out, but there looks to be enough and i'm fairly sure I didn't miss any! Theres 8 to rename though - I don't have the rights *mumbles* Enjoy them all! --kiz ^talk_email 20:59, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Nice work! With some rough calculations it looks like we have 400/406 images, but I'm sure there are a few duplicates which were omitted etc., so we probably have them all. --Legoless 21:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually, there should be less than 406, all the KotN ones? --kiz ^talk_email 21:06, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I counted them, as well as the three images which were already up at elderscrolls.com. --Legoless 22:03, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Shadowkey DialogueEdit

Hey Legoless, just figured I'd let you know that I finished extracting the dialogue. You can find it here. • JA^Talk 03:58, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

No kidding... It even has enemy names. Fantastic! --Legoless 17:49, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Volkihar on Lore:Races pageEdit

I did not wish to simply undo your edit without checking back with you first but I believe you made a major mistake there ;) Every single Vampire in Skyrim (the game) is a Volkihar. Even if we ignore the written accounts there still remain a few important facts: In the game there are several vampires which are designated by the game as members of clan Volkihar (Volkihar Master Vampire) and they can get you infected with vampirism just like any other common vampire and the strain of their disease is the same as the one inflicted on other vampires and the player as well. And in every single TES game since daggerfall the simple rule is that you always share the clan-bloodline of your creator. Should the upcoming DLC have prompted you to change that part then please consider this: The development team has declared that the Vampire Lords in Castle Volkihar are the pinnacle of their species and we know already that common vampires will acknowledge them. Usually vampires of different clans hate each others guts and would attack their counterpart immediately. And the developers even have gone to such lengths to illuminate why there are no werebears in an ingame-lore book yet they would have put a strange generic vampire clan in place of the Volkihar into the game without any explanation whatsoever? I highly doubt it ;) The reason they never made a statement about it was cause it's pretty obvious that they simply couldn't find a working gameplay mechanism to include the whole "grasp through solid ice"-thing which would have been worth the time and since they already named their ingame vampire ancients >Volkihar< and everyone knows which clan inhabits Skyrim it was supposed to be obvious which vampires we are dealing with. Shimenawa 21:37, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's incorrect. From a lore perspective, every vampire in Skyrim is most certainly not Volkihar.

1. Two types of generic vampire enemies are explicitly named "Volkihar", while the others aren't.
2. Movarth Piquine appears in Skyrim, and yet is confirmed to be of the Cyrodilic bloodline.
3. Volkihar vampires are traditionally only found in eastern Skyrim.

Dawnguard may completely overhaul the Volkihar lore, but that remains to be seen. The only thing which may suggest that all the vampires are of the same bloodline is their unique "Sanguinare Vampiris" disease. However, no lore explanation was given for this disease name change, so to assume it is unique to the Volkihar would be speculation. --Legoless 21:46, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

1. Well, in Oblivion the vampires had no name at all yet you accept the conclusion from a single very incomplete document (whose author brought his pupil as he admits himself more than once close to death with the flaws and errors contained in his background knowledge) that they all belong to the same clan.
2. If Bethesda hasn't made the effort to program every ability which is attribute to the Volkihar we certainly can't assume they would write code for an entire bloodline just so they could include a single vampire - Movarth ;)
3. Volkihar vampires traditionally also "lived beneath the ice of remote and haunted lakes, never venturing into the world of men" - yet we see >Volkihar Master Vampires< all over the place and they haven't frozen anyones blood with their breath. I think it's pretty safe to state that they care naught for human fables (heck, even Castle Volkihar itself is in the northwest of Skyrim). And as mentioned before it is based on a very sketchy description which might be completely deficient for all we know.

They all share a similar appearance (crimson eyes at any time) which neither cyrodiils nor morrowinds nor daggerfalls vampires had. --Shimenawa 02:23, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

May I jump in?

1. First off, you probably shouldn't bring the validity of your only source into question. Secondly, where are you getting that idea? We aren't talking about the Oblivion vampires. Besides, as Legoless said, two vampires are explicitly titled "Volkihar Vampire". If all vampires are Volkihar, then why aren't they all named "Volkihar"? Or why isn't there a source that explicitly states that all vampires in Skyrim are Volkihar?
2. As Legoless said, Movarth Piquine is of the Cyrodiil bloodline.
3. Volkihar Vampires do have a spell, "Chill Touch", that does 10pts Frost Damage. It's attached to an unarmed attack.

Also, on a general note, you question the validity of the source in question (Immortal Blood) yet never question whether or not their supposed abilities are over-exaggerated. • JA^Talk 03:31, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Please do ^^

1. My only source for what? If we talk about whether skyrim's vampires are all from one and the same clan of course there arises a need to compare them to their cousins from other provinces. Penitus Oculatus Agents aren't designated as >Imperial Penitus Oculatus Agents<, unlike Imperial Soldiers. Does that mean we should question their allegiance?! If the affiliation can be assumed by their mere nature there's no need to insult the players intelligence with stating the obvious again and again.
2. Likewise please don't insult me by repetition of a question I've already dealt with in the previous reply ;)
3. Is this Spell only available to Volkihar Master Vampires or vampires in general?

Actually I questioned the validity of the source EXPLICITLY on two occasions in the last reply. It seems to me that you haven't read even half of the message I posted. Maybe you were just angry at what you may have perceived as an attack against a friend of yours though I assure you it was not meant in any offensive way. I merely care a great deal about TES and UESP and want this site to be as accurate as humanly possibly :) --Shimenawa 04:18, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Alright, cool. Please don't take this as a personal attack - I'm debating a point, just like you. I've read and re-read your posts, and I'm responding to what I understand.

1. Your only source that Volkihar vampires even exist. Also, the argument you're making is like saying "If some trees are birch trees, then all trees must be birch trees." Just because they are all vampires does not make them of the same clan. How is it that their "mere nature" of vampirism automatically makes them Volkihar?
2. I don't see how you answered that question at all. You said that "Bethesda didn't bother to make an entire bloodline for the one Volkihar vampire, Movarth Piquine". Legoless said that Movarth is actually a Cyrodilic vampire, rendering your point moot.
3. It's available to vampires in general.

Again, the source I'm referring to (and linked to) is Immortal Blood. This is the only source that mentions these vampires; naturally, this is the source you are questioning. I'm asking why you refer to it as "very incomplete" and "sketchy" yet take all of their supposed abilities of freeze breath and grabbing people through ice at face value. • JA^Talk 04:33, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure we will work this out eventually :p And yeah, of course it could be me who's in the wrong here ;)

1. If every tree in my garden looks exactly the same I would actually indeed wager that they all belong to the same species. Especially if I take a glance at the garden of my neighbour and his trees look entirely different.
2. Yeah, thats the basic assumption of mine. They made Peryite's Pits look like the Deadlands of Dagon in Oblivion just to cut short on the programming effort. Should we really assume Bethesda would waste their time and resources in a chase which's even less pertinent?
3. Would make your point somewhat obsolete :P

I know what source you mean and as I stated before - you haven't checked my reply carefully enough ;) My whole point WAS in fact that the source is flawed. Legoless used the book as a validation for his theory that at least not all of Skyrim's vampiric population could be Volkihar cause the book claims they only exist in the eastern regions of the province to which I responded (amongst other things) that A) the ingame Volkihar Master Vampires certainly don't apply to that rule since they can be found everywhere AND the author of the book admits that he nearly killed his pupil twice cause of his inaccurate information. --Shimenawa 09:02, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

(←) You say that Immortal Blood is a sketchy source. Manifesto Cyrodiil Vampyrum is the main source for info on the Cyrodilic vampires. This validates the info given in the book (that Cyrodiil has a single tribe). Similarly, we should trust that the information on the Volkihar is equally as correct until proven otherwise. We can debate the truthfulness of every in-game book for eternity and it won't get us anywhere. You also state that Movarth is a game limitation. That is true, but so are the Volkihar. They all look like standard Skyrim vampires - not vice versa. The developers have even said that the game's vampires are under-developed, and they're using Dawnguard as a means to expand on the Volkihar. If you don't have any actual references for your conviction, there is simply no reason to assume that all the vampires are Volkihar. You might also note that the sentence on Lore:Volkihar which has gotten you so offended isn't even included in the article - it's commented out. It was added to prevent the continuous onslaught of people adding baseless assumptions such as this to the article. --Legoless 16:41, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I think you got me wrong here. I am not "offended" by your statements since I know you are a reputable member of the UESP community and I am sure you made the change with the best of intentions ;) But so do I and I'd hate to see an opportunity to improve the site gone to waste by allowing potential misinformation to take roots. Even if the Volkihar are not the only clan present in the game you sure will concur with me that there are clan members to be found in Skyrim; And I hope you also agree that Vampires pass their bloodline onto their offspring (since that is established TES lore); If we can come to terms with both of those conclusions then the reason for your change (quote: →Vampire: lore link; cannot play as Volkihar) is inaccurate since there are Volkihar vampires in the game and they are able to infect you with their vampirism. See, I would never make such a fuss about it if I were not absolutely certain you made a mistake there. Being an admin comes with a responsibility as you undoubtably knew when you took the job and part of that is to be even more self-critical than most other average users like myself should be ;). Making an error is nothing to be ashamed about. Please at least take the arguments against your change carefully into consideration before you draft your next reply - I'm not here to waste your time or lash out against you but to ensure the quality standards of a site I care about are upkept. --Shimenawa 18:32, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Right. I've made my case, and my opinion remains steadfast. Unless you can bring any additional information to light, I consider this discussion finished. If you don't agree with my decision, ask the community on the article's talk page. --Legoless 18:47, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Though I hoped you would at least be open-minded I somehow expected that kind of response. At this point I'm pretty convinced even an autographed letter from Todd Howard himself stating that you can play as Volkihar wouldn't get you to admit any mistake on your part whatsoever. I'm certainly not going to call for daddy i.e. the community/other admins/the host just to prove my point. We aren't in kindergarten. But your disregard for any objection against your opinion is somewhat unsettling. I am not sure you are entirely fit for your admin privileges. Anyway - best regards to Ireland! See you around --Shimenawa 19:13, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

An autographed letter? Please, do share. I may have considered your point of view if you had any amount of tangible evidence to go on. As it stands, you have nothing but your own self-assertion to back you up. It is not "my opinion" which I am arguing for, it is a sourced and logical conclusion supported by at least one editor. I'm not planting the seeds of falsehood in the article simply by not agreeing with your stubborn opinion. The wiki is based around community consensus; to state that asking for the common opinion is "calling for daddy" is grossly misguided. --Legoless 19:22, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

As someone who's not focused on lore, why should all vampires be Volkihar? Of course some will be, but why can't there be rogue vampires? Except for Dawnguard, I'm not even seeing any vampiric collaboration across Skyrim. As no lore, from what I can see, says that Volkihar are the only vampires in Skyrim, I'm inclined to assume that not all are Volkihar. Also, if Movarth is an exception to the "Volkihar-only" rule, why can't there be other exceptions? I bet we may get some information with Dawnguard, though.

Shimenawa, as for your point of vampires not all having red eyes in the other games, this is 200 years later; things may have changed. Vely^{►Talk►Email} 19:39, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

(←) Shimenawa, please don't think that Legoless is in any way misusing his position as an Admin. Right now, you're the only one who's arguing in favour of all vampires being Volkihar. You've raised your points, but so far, there has been no agreement that they're correct, so naturally, your edit has been undone. The next appropriate step on a wiki is to ask for other people to weigh in on your theory. That's most appropriate for the Lore page—even as an Admin, Legoless' talk page is likely to receive fewer relevant opinions than the Lore page. – Robin Hood↝talk 19:51, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

@Legoless: The tangible evidence was right before your eyes in my last reply and you chose to ignore it ;) Game has Volkihar vampires which can infect you, lore states that you inherit the bloodline of your creator and nowhere in the entire game is a single evidence to the contrary or talk about another vampire clan aside from Movarth's. I might start some polemic with an obstinate anonymous user who seems to vandalize the pages on purpose or mere idiocy but you are an admin and frankly I expect something better from you. I won't challenge the blatant misfeasance of your power cause it won't serve any substantial good for the site or the community and that is way more important to me than anything I could achieve by striving against your intransigence. You made your point and no matter how unsustainable your admin rights to override my objection will let you enforce it - hence be glad and get over it ;)

PS: As for the gentler comments of my two fellow users here: As I said - even if they are not all from clan Volkihar, at least some belong to them and if they should infect you, you would belong to their clan which makes Legoless reason for the change refuted since you would be able to play as Volkihar even if there is no difference in terms of gameplay ;) --Shimenawa 20:04, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

It seems you have changed your point from "only Volkihars are in Skyrim" to "the player can become a Volkihar because they take on the parent type". That makes much more sense, but in that case, I would generalize "vampire" rather than "Volkihar or other types", as it seems like a rather redundant thing to add to a page. It could, perhaps, be added beneath the entry about vampires in general being playable (as a subtype), but we don't yet have a page on them.

I hate to be the one to bring it up, but please follow etiquette policy and assume good faith. Accusations of abuse of power based on simple opinions are uncalled for. Vely^{►Talk►Email} 20:17, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I am by all means receptive to input from others and I am sure that there is a reasonable option that only some of Skyrim's vampires belong to Clan Volkihar. The reason why their name is still the issue in this conversation is the fact that if you follow through with that assertion removing the link on the lore:races page (from the Volkihar to the Skyrim:Vampirism-page) on grounds of the statement they wouldn't be playable is simply wrong.

As for the etiquette: Assuming good faith is a policy of mine TILL proven wrong - and in this case I approximate the illation that I am dealing with a pretty obstinate self-righteous admin here ;) --Shimenawa 20:34, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to remind you that personal attacks are grounds for an immediate block. --Legoless 20:42, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I was already wondering how long it would take you to finally dash me and my >stubborn opinion< with your admin awesomeness and the power of your mighty banhammer ^^ --Shimenawa 20:51, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

You do realize that it wasn't Legoless who warned you - it was me. • JA^Talk 20:53, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

(←) So, what should be done about the vampire type being playable or not? Looking at the Cyrodiil Vampyrum Order, the note says "Although the order doesn't appear in any games per se, it is mentioned in the Vile Lair official plug-in for TES IV: Oblivion, and it can be assumed that most vampires encountered in the game are of the bloodline." Based on the fact that that is marked as playable, I think we should mark Volkihar as playable due to the possibility of catching it from them, unless we are waiting on Dawnguard for any more vamp info. However, if you can catch vampirism from Movarth, should his bloodline also be added? It did not originate in Skyrim, but it is present. Vely^{►Talk►Email} 20:55, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Despite it being completely irrelevant, I concede that - since it is possible to contract vampirism from a Volkihar - they might as well be marked as playable, and the same with the Cyrodilics I guess. I'm still strongly opposed to the assumption that all Skyrim vampires are Volkihar, even though lore gives no clear indication as to what bloodline they are (if any). --Legoless 21:01, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't think they're the only ones in Skyrim, but we don't really have any other clan names. I don't think the CVO is the only group in Cyrodiil either, but again, no other names. A note could be added to the page stating that there may be other, unnamed clans in any of the provinces, or rogue vampires from such clans, and that those types may be playable but are unknown. Vely^{►Talk►Email} 21:08, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

@Jak Atackka: Yeah I did and I took the time to respond on your page cause it does not belong here - Legoless talk page is already enough spammed with this discussion as it is ;)

@Vely: Thats actually a very good question :) ! But the lore page was designed to indicate the place of origin or major influence of a clan and since we are dealing with only a single individual here I would desist from including the whole clan on the lore section though it could be mentioned in the Skyrim:Vampirism page?

@Legoless: I already assured you that the presence of more than one clan in Skyrim is a very viable chance though it's still arguable ;) That was never my issue with your change. --Shimenawa 21:15, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The situation with the Cyrodilic vampires is a lot clearer, as it's stated that no other tribe lies within the province's borders. While it's hard to believe that the "wild" vampires are members of the order, it seemed like a logical assumption that they would be of the same bloodline - otherwise they would have been pushed out. Perhaps removing the notes altogether is the best course of action, considering the confusion they seem to cause. --Legoless 21:20, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Edit: In reply to Movarth's bloodline, he created an entire coven, including several named NPCs in the game. --Legoless 21:20, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Just a minor note, but at the end of Immortal Blood it states that Movarth was infected by a Cyrodilic vampire, so he is not a Volkihar vampire. — Unsigned comment by Jak Atackka (talk • contribs) at 22:39 on 8 June 2012 (GMT)

Question is if his coven shares his blood or comprises primary Volkihar/other vampiric outcasts. If they all are his descendents I believe they would qualify for an entry in the lore page :/ --Shimenawa 21:53, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

He directly infected Alva, who spread the curse to others. As for the other vampires in his lair, some of them may actually show up as Volkihar vampires at higher levels due to leveled lists, but again: game limitations. If people want to note it on the Cyrodilic article, I'll go ahead and make the change, but I say we avoid the specifics. --Legoless 22:00, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

(←) Since Alva also features a perfect imitation of common humans I'd say the game designers intended the whole pack or at least the majority of them to be of cyrodilic blood. And some of Daggerfall's clans had not very high membership figures either. I'd say if they don't deserve a place in the lore:races section (not sure about it - how many percent of the entire vampiric population should a clan cover to be included :/ ????) they should at least be mentioned in the Vampirism page. Heh, this thread evolved into an outright vampire demography discussion :P --Shimenawa 22:16, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

InputEdit

Howdy. I know you're interested in the Shezarrine (your old forum topic is the first thing that pops up in a Google search), and I was hoping I could get your input on a draft I made for a lore article on the subject. It's a complicated, nebulous subject, and I'm not even sure what the plural of Shezarrine is. It's easy to see why it doesn't exist, but since it's #4 on the Wanted Pages, I figured I'd give it a go. Feel free to revise or chop as you think appropriate. Thanks! Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 01:19, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Quite the undertaking, writing an article about the Shezarrine. I'll give it a read over, but the subject is still somewhat of a mystery and highly speculative. In fact, I'd be much more comfortable with writing the article once we have the out-of-game content hosted on the wiki (not discussed yet, but something I've been musing about), as most of what would be deemed "speculation" is actually explanations from Kirkbride which are currently hard to source. Just two points before I begin reading, which aren't included in the forum post but may be of interest to you: Hans the Fox was one of the Five Hundred Companions from Atmora; and it seems that Ulfric/Tullius/Dovahkiin are part of a new trinity, according to MK. —Legoless 15:42, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, the article is basically a long way of saying "We don't know", but at least it would solve some red links. I added the bit about Hans the Fox, but the "new trinity" is over my head. Damn Kirkbride. There are definitely some sub-plots here I'm glossing over. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 20:06, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I've read over the article and added a small paragraph about the situation with Talos. We might as well launch it, although it drips with speculation (a condition which can't be helped when dealing with any of Kirkbride's stuff, to be honest). —Legoless 21:44, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

All great stuff; I'll get right on that. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 22:39, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Black Sacrament UselessEdit

I don't suppose you could tell me where, in Elder Scrolls lore, it states that the Black Sacrament doesn't do anything.

And for that matter, how did the Night Mother know about Astrid's Black Sacrament?70.178.75.207 19:28, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

May I? Look here. It is Astrid's dialogue, explaining why the Black Sacrament doesn't work as effectively as it should. • JA^Talk 19:30, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

What Jak said. The Night Mother, at the time of Aventus Arentino's performance of the ritual, was sealed inside a wooden crate by the side of the road in the middle of nowhere, and hadn't had a Listener for years. —Legoless 19:36, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Categorizing bodies of waterEdit

Howdy. Thanks again for your help on the Shezarrine article. I noticed you switched the placement of the Sea of Ghosts, and I thought I should point out this discussion. Basically, rpeh and I thought it made sense to follow trends elsewhere and ignore the prefatory parts of the names of bodies of water when alphabetizing them, just as we would ignore "The", or a person's title. Seems like it would be better in the long run, when and if we really have to worry about "bunching". If you're intent on flipping that standard, there are still a few offenders, such as Lake Rumare and Sea of Pearls. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 04:31, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

I hate alphabetical lists. -_- I had a feeling there was some reason it was under G, but I didn't think it was very intuitive for the reader. I've moved it back. —Legoless 13:51, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

AdviceEdit

Hi Legoless! I hope you don't mind me asking a bit of advice - I stumbled upon a quest page, Oblivion:Information_Gathering, that is quite desperately needing cleaned up. I've added it to my own personal task list, but since I probably won't be able to do anything about it soon should I add a cleanup template to the page to let other editors know? Thanks :) --—Daniellibus ^{• Talk • E • C} 11:59, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

If you intend to work on it yourself in a sandbox, you can add the {{wip}} template to the top of the page. If you don't want to completely overhaul the article on your own, you can use a {{cleanup}} tag to specify what's wrong with the page and encourage other editors to fix it. You could also just leave it as it is for now until you can get around to it, as I doubt it will see much activity otherwise. The article's talkpage would be a good place to go if you want to make suggestions or get community input. —Legoless 12:24, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

VampiresEdit

Hey Lego, an IP just made 14 edits to the Vampire page. Will you check it out? They seem believable, yet uncheckable. The Silencer speaks^Talk 20:51, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

It looks to be correct. I omitted a lot of the information which I didn't fully understand (see the embarrassing level mix-up, for example), so I'm glad the IP was able to add it. I've marked them as patrolled. —Legoless 23:05, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Vampire Image RequestsEdit

Hey, I just wanted to mention that I went ahead and removed your completed requests from the Image Requests page, since they have been added to the article already and the overhaul of the page has been launched for a day or two now. Just letting you know, since the page guidelines expect you (as the one making the request) to remove the request once it has been completed.

There was one image of a Vampire's Thrall which was not used. I went ahead and added it to the section of the Vampire page which mentioned the thralls for now, just so that it would be used, but I was wondering about the Vampire Thrall information in general. Nephele created a redirect for 'Vampire Thrall' at the Vampire page back in November, but there's not much mention of it on the page. Should there be a section for it on the page like the ones for each of the regular vampire types? ABCface^◥ 03:34, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

And now I've updated the page so that the section-link above isn't relevant. The image is now at the top of the page, and seems misplaced, but I'm not sure what else to do with it. I don't know the information about vampire thralls, so what are your thoughts on this? ABCface^◥ 12:34, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I hadn't known I needed to remove the request. I've removed the Vampire's Thrall image from the top of the Vampire page - the article isn't particularly relevant, and leaving it at the top of the page is a poor position. Better to have it marked as unused until a Skyrim:Vampire's Thrall article can be written. —Legoless 13:30, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, Neph put that redirect there way back in November, so I wasn't quite sure what to do about it. Thanks for taking care of that. :) ABCface^◥ 20:06, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Happy happy birthday!Edit

Hope it's a good one! ABCface^◥ 23:20, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Happy Birthday. Don't spend all of it looking at Dawngaurd pages :p The Silencer speaks^Talk 00:24, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Happy Birthday! ^_^ — Kimi the Elf ^{(talk | contribs)} 00:33, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Happy Birthday! • JA^Talk 01:22, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

And another one...happy birthday! – Robin Hood↝talk 03:06, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I figured out the perfect gift! Three OB camps in the retro sandboxes - let's return to our roots while we wait for Beth to fulfill Microsoft's ridiculous contract! Happy Birthday, mate! --Krusty 03:09, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

(←) Thanks guys! —Legoless 13:48, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

And one more ... happy birthday! --Holomay 14:09, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Holomay! —Legoless 21:54, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

"For he's a jolly good Lego, for he's a jolly good Lego, for he's a jolly good Lego... And so say all of UESP!" Happy birthday! Kitkat ^{•Talk•Contrib•E-mail} 22:26, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! :D —Legoless 23:34, 27 June 2012 (UTC)