Skyrim talk:Combat/Archive 3

This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Combat discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Page Quality

Is it me or is this page just rather disorganized? It's lacking of decent images, seems to be filled with a lot of subjective advice, and includes many details that detract from the more important information (e.g. a graph showing that Khajiit do more unarmed damage than humans). If you actually try reading it all the way through,it sounds more like a strategy guide. I honestly don't know what to suggest other than to start from scratch or cut out entire sections so to insure that the page meets a higher quality standard. Let me give a few examples of things I noticed.

"The Assassin or Stealthy Combat Style"-This entire section could practically be deleted and very little actual information lost. It essentially references (seemingly at random) various spells, stealth related quests, and tactics one could use if they didn't want to engage an enemy directly. It states "In some situations, the best form of combat is no combat" which contradicts it even being on this page. If there's any value to this section, it could be presented in a much shorter section titled "Combat Alternatives" or something that presents alternatives to engaging enemies, in a much less subjective manner.

I'll add more specific things later. Feel free to comment with opinions on what should or shouldn't be done to this page. --BlackhawkXIII (talk) 18:19, 22 April 2013 (GMT)

I agree and so am redesigning it here. Feel free to modify it if you think it will be useful! --Ad intellige ^(talk) 19:17, 22 April 2013 (GMT)

I think this page and the broader page are a lot cleaner and hope to make this page look similar. Thanks for the Sandbox page, hopefully we can make something good out of it. --BlackhawkXIII (talk) 20:50, 22 April 2013 (GMT)

I used this page as inspiration for the sandbox. As of now, I think we will only need to fix the Dualwielding subsection. --Ad intellige ^(talk) 20:57, 22 April 2013 (GMT)

If there are no objections, I will proceed to replace the current page with the page in my sandbox. --Ad intellige ^(talk) 21:59, 22 April 2013 (GMT)

I like this page more already. It's simple but it's a good starting point and essentially what I had in mind. I'm now just trying to figure out how we can bring the focus of the article away from just the combat skills (which I think are still necessary) and add more about what "Combat" in Skyrim encompasses. Some things I wanted to elaborate on: when/how combat starts/ends, unique types of combat (Beast Form/Vampire Lord form, horse mounted combat, dragon riding, etc.) Also, the difficulty chart needs to be added back in for now because the combat page was the only page where that information was readily available and it's pretty important. I'm going to consider suggesting a "Damage" page that details on all the ways the player can take/deal indirect damage. Mostly this is because I haven't yet found a page that details damage from drowning. Damage multipliers from difficulty and info about falling damage were both on the Combat page before so we either need to keep them here or find a better place to include them. --BlackhawkXIII (talk) 02:38, 23 April 2013 (GMT)

New additions have been made. The page is slowly but surely reaching an organized and thorough level. I'm encouraging for everyone to look it over and make suggestions. --BlackhawkXIII (talk) 02:27, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

(←) I am in favor of making a new damage page. I have removed that information because it seems to be irrelevant in my opinion. --Kitty1014 (talk) 03:50, 28 April 2013 (GMT)

While I agree that this info is not relevant to the Combat page, it should be left here until it is added to a page somewhere. No one will see it in your sandbox. --Xyzzy ^Talk 05:02, 28 April 2013 (GMT)

Oh okay. I will put it back on the page then. --Kitty1014 ^(talk) 05:03, 28 April 2013 (GMT)

Too late :) I beat you to it. --Xyzzy ^Talk 05:05, 28 April 2013 (GMT)

Barely :) --Kitty1014 ^(talk) 05:07, 28 April 2013 (GMT)

Just wondering, but should we archive most of this page except this conversation and all below it? --Kitty1014 ^(talk) 05:11, 28 April 2013 (GMT)

According to the Archiving Guidelines, it should be done if the page is greater than 32 kb in size. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to determine how big a page is, but this talk page is definitely smaller than others I have seen. --Xyzzy ^Talk 05:28, 28 April 2013 (GMT)

I went ahead and archived the page because it seemed to match the size of the previous archive. Also, I have made a possible new "Damage" page here and was wondering what people thought of it. I do not want to make the page without some community input. Feel free to modify the page at will. --Ad intellige ^(talk) 22:02, 2 May 2013 (GMT)

(←) Who moved the Brawling information out of the "Alternative Combat Systems" section? I believe it should be kept separate from the Melee Combat section since brawls do no follow the normal rules of combat. Anyone else care to give an opinion. I'll move it back in a few days. --BlackhawkXIII (talk) 22:36, 9 May 2013 (GMT)

I moved it back to that section. For things like that you can move it and if someone objects, they will undo it and then you need to take it to the talk page. --Ad intellige ^(talk) 12:54, 11 May 2013 (GMT)

Ring of Beast and Unarmed damage

Confirmed that Ring of the Beast affects Khajitt claws. Using the command getAVinfo unarmeddamage get me the following results: Without ring, Unarmed Damage 22.00 With the ring, Unarmed Damage 42.00

All Gone

Just wondering where I would find information about difficulty, fall damage, and everything else that was removed with the deletion of 20,000 characters. I was looking for a general combat page, or "damage" page as mentioned above by BlackhawkXIII, but a search didn't turn up a page.

Oh yes, I got here by searching "Difficulty". The Skyrim:Combat page has a difficulty sublink but when I clicked it I was taken to the recently edited page, so I was confused for a moment. I had visited the page a few days before it was edited and noticed the difference, then checked the history and saw the recent massive change of 20,000. 50.142.203.143 03:45, 25 April 2013 (GMT)

I just put the info about Difficulty and falling damage back. Myself and a couple others have been working to redesign this page since the one that had been active for a while contained a lot of unnecessary and subjective material (try reading the page before the edit). I was trying to find a new place for Difficulty and falling damage, mainly because they aren't specifically a part of combat and I apologize that the info was displaced for a little while. Any contributions you would like to make to this page are quite welcome and if you feel any other crucial sections should be restored, feel free to do that as well. --BlackhawkXIII (talk) 04:44, 25 April 2013 (GMT)

Minimum stamina - moved from article

Additionally, 1 point of stamina is the minimum amount required to perform a power attack. This means consuming a potion or food item that restores at least 1 point of stamina every second will grant you the ability to perform consecutive power attacks.

I'm moving this here because as I read it, it seems to imply that any power attack only requires 1 point of stamina, which is incorrect. This needs explaining and possible rewording before being added back to the article. --Xyzzy ^Talk 16:48, 30 April 2013 (GMT)

Not sure what you mean by incorrect. My intention was to explain that if, for example, you drink Skyrim:Vegetable Soup (Restore Stamina, 1 pt for 720 secs) then you can power attack continually - even with what looks like an empty stamina bar - as the effect is constantly regenerating at least one point of stamina every second. See notes: Skyrim:Restore_Stamina#Notes if you need conformation. --Jimeee (talk) 16:55, 30 April 2013 (GMT)

So, if you run out of stamina in the middle of combat, then eat or drink something that has as little as a 1 point Restore Stamina effect, that you can power attack continuously as long as the effect lasts? I didn't know that. However, the note should be altered to specify that the 1 point minimum requirement is true only under the effects of Restore Stamina. The way it is currently worded, it could be interpreted that 1 point of Stamina is sufficient to initiate a power attack under any circumstances, which is incorrect. Power attacks normally require that you have enough stamina in your bar before they can be initiated, as per the sentence before the one you added. The two sentences were contradictory as written. --Xyzzy ^Talk 18:41, 30 April 2013 (GMT)

Are referring to the line on the page: However, if you do not have enough stamina to perform a power attack, the stamina bar will flash green and you will perform a regular attack instead.. This line should rather say if you have zero stamina - you can attack with 1 or more point. Do a quick test it in game if you wish - perform a power attack and note how much stamina is consumed. Lets say it drains 50 points. Now sprint to drain your stamina to nearly zero - you will find that you can still perform the same power attack with less that 50 points stamina. You can perform it with just 1 point. The stamina regen from some food just ensures you always have at least 1 point - as by the time the animation for the first power attack has finished, you will already have regenerated a few points of stamina. Enough to power attack again. I know this as I've played a two-handed berserker style character for 300+ hours. Veg soup is more valuable than stamina potions for this playstyle. --Jimeee (talk) 09:46, 1 May 2013 (GMT)

I'll try to make time tonight to test and confirm it, but if someone else can confirm, that'll be good enough for me to add it back to the article. Thanks for clarifying this. --Xyzzy ^Talk 15:58, 1 May 2013 (GMT)

Verified. Power attacking with my two-handed dragonbone sword normally take 100 stamina, but I able to execute a power attack with 22 stamina (the lowest I could catch it at). I'll add it back and reword the whole section. --Xyzzy ^Talk 03:44, 2 May 2013 (GMT)

Interesting. I'm playing a dual-wielder right now and it's clear that even with Beef Stew & Vegetable Soup running, I can't do a full dual-wield power attack unless I have the stamina to pay for it in advance. Looks like this is ... buggy. sigh. --Morrolan (talk) 00:52, 7 August 2013 (GMT)

(←) Hmmm. Maybe this needs more verification. I didn't try using the 1-point-restoration-food trick like Jimmee said. I could only get my Stamina down to 22 between power attacks. I can't seem to get Skyrim to launch right now to test it, so I'll add a vn tag until we can test it further. There may be more to it, like different limitations for dual-wielding, or a change from a patch or USKP. --Xyzzy ^Talk 04:49, 7 August 2013 (GMT)

It may be because dual-wield power attacks are actually several attacks in sequence. It could be that the speed of the multiple attacks is making it so that my stamina doesn't have time to recharge in between attacks, and I'm getting the green flash because of the later power attacks going to regular attacks. --Morrolan (talk) 22:53, 7 August 2013 (GMT)

That's actually a good observation and you're probably right about it. I think dual wield attacks behave differently than normal power attacks. --BlackhawkXIII (talk) 17:33, 8 August 2013 (GMT)

Legendary Difficulty "damage dealt" multiplier

I'm trying to reconcile the damage I'm dealing out to a Legendary Dragon, and can't see how what I'm doing is possible.

Playing on Legendary Difficulty, it is possible to take down a Legendary Dragon with one shot from a carefully crafted bow. I've tested this four times on my Xbox.

However, the numbers don't seem to add up.

Help me out please! I must be missing something big.

The bow has a base damage of 209 Added to that, I'm using the following apparel enchantments Necklace +44% Ring +44% Gauntlets +47% Helmet +47% which brings to the total to 589.38 In addition, the arrow is a dragonbone arrow, for 25 damage a new total of 614.38

Also, I have a potion giving 130% more bow damage for 60 seconds which brings it to 1413.074 Sneak bonus multiplier = 3.0 giving me a new total of 4239.222

Added to that, the arrow is poisoned with Damage Health, Ravage Health and Lingering Health damage. That adds 65+65+(32*10) = another 450, bringing the total to 4689.222

But I expect this to be multiplied by 0.25 since I'm playing on legendary which should bring it back to 1172.3055 ???

Since a Legendary Dragon has health = 4163 or 4363, I don't see how even this fabulously augmented weapon can take him down in one shot. But it does!

I have added the poison effect after the sneak multiplier as I understand the sneak multiplier only affects the weapon damage.

I should also add that the bow is enchanted to cause Stamina damage of 64 points plus 43 absorbed points. — Unsigned comment by GBO Possum (talk • contribs) at 22:00 on 3 May 2013‎

Shouldn't dual-wielding have a section for it?

I've noticed that this article has undergone some serious clean-up, but honestly, why was dual-wielding reduced to a single paragraph? It's a major gameplay style, and a new addition to the TES series, so I think it deserves some in-depth coverage.

Shouldn't it, at least, have its own subsection within the "One Handed" section? With four equal signs on each side of the title, instead of the usual three?Dstebbins (talk) 06:12, 4 May 2013 (GMT)

While yes, it is a new concept, it is effectively identical to one-handed with the exception that you use two one-handed weapons, IMO. If you have a more substantial amount of information to add, feel free to modify the page. --Ad intellige ^(talk) 06:18, 4 May 2013 (GMT)

When adding information, just make sure to be objective, i.e. don't just go giving advice on how one can be better at dual wielding. The old page had an extremely long section on dual wielding but it included a lot of unnecessary material like "If you intend to use a soul trap enchantment, equip the enchanted weapon to your left hand, since it attacks first. Another useful enchantment for your left-hand weapon can be Absorb Stamina. This will allow you to continually dual-power attack, as long as your hits land and the weapon has charge,"If dual-wielding, pack potions to restore health and stamina, as repeated dual power attacks deplete stamina very quickly. This style particularly suits Redguards, as the Adrenaline Rush power lets you do power attacks in rapid succession without tiring," and "If you use this style, light armor can be better than heavy, as dodging will be your primary method of defense, and you can move faster in light armor. Alternatively, activating The Steed Stone allows you to move just as quickly in Heavy Armor." It's information like this that we're trying to avoid and edit out of articles, or at least restrict to specific pages. --BlackhawkXIII (talk) 22:27, 9 May 2013 (GMT)

Details on dual-wielding probably belong on the One-Handed page. It is not identical to regular one-handed, though; the way in which power attacks work in dual-wield is significantly different. --Morrolan (talk) 03:46, 9 August 2013 (GMT)

Agreed. Dual-wielding is just one-handed weaponry held in both hands. All of the dual-wielding perks are in the One-handed skill tree. It belongs in the One-handed section. --Xyzzy ^Talk 03:52, 9 August 2013 (GMT)

New Section:Staggering

I added a new section about staggering since I think it's an important part of combat that isn't really detailed anywhere else. I realize that not all of it may be entirely accurate, since I am not familiar with the actual mechanics behind it but I figure it's a decent starting point that can be changed and improved. The ragdoll section was just sort of an afterthought and if it seems out of place, it'll probably be fine to remove it. I would appreciate any feedback/contributions regarding this section. --BlackhawkXIII (talk) 22:47, 12 May 2013 (GMT)

It should probably be mentioned that power attacks with daggers cannot stagger (unless someone knows of any exceptions). Apple pi (talk) 15:44, 25 July 2013 (GMT)

30xdamage sneak power attacks with daggers certainly seem to cause staggering (when they don't oneshot). It's hard to stagger with daggers normally because they don't do much damage, which does seem to be connected to stagger. --Morrolan (talk) 00:01, 7 August 2013 (GMT)

Can anyone confirm that increased weight leads to a higher chance to stagger? — Unsigned comment by 216.245.238.197 (talk) at 02:27 on 12 September 2013‎

(←) I am currently playing a max weight Nord. Fus-roh-dah doesn't ragdoll me, and I seem to get staggered much less when fighting Draugr using the lower levels of Unrelenting Force. --Morrolan (talk) 18:02, 19 September 2013 (GMT)

It may be impossible to verify that weight has an effect on staggering by in-game testing, unless you do a LOT of testing and develop some statistical data, but that would still be circumstantial. This might be a good request for the CK Requests page. --Xyzzy ^Talk 14:00, 20 September 2013 (GMT)

Does the creation kit have data connected to actual combat rules in it? --Morrolan (talk) 01:08, 21 September 2013 (GMT)

Difficulty Level: Possible Discovery

(I know the info on difficulty has been moved from this page to the Damage page but I wanted to put this here so that I might get a little more feedback.) While playing on the Legendary difficulty, a friend pointed out to me that my Health and Stamina were regenerating noticeably slower than normal. I checked to see if any active effects were affecting my regeneration but there was nothing. Then I lowered my difficulty down to Master and immediately my Stamina and Health started regenerating faster. I'm pretty sure this means that the Legendary difficulty has an additional influence on the player in that it slows Health, Stamina, and possibly Magicka (untested) regeneration. I'd like some more people to test this before I change the information on the page and possibly figure out what the percentage of regeneration reduction is. --BlackhawkXIII (talk) 10:11, 25 May 2013 (GMT)

Power attack bonuses formula

This has been marked as a question that needs to be answered.

Does anyone know how the power attack bonuses influence the multipliers? If the power attack is improved by 25%, does it mean that:

a) 2x multiplier becomes 2.25x (2x + 0.25x)

b) it's multiplied like this: 2 * 1.25 = 2.5

c) or like this, if a power attack is considered a 100% damage increase: 100 * 1.25 = 125% damage increase = 2.25x

I know a) and c) have the same outcome, but it's only a coincidence and in they're cores both formulas are totally different. Let's calculate power attack bonus from dual savagery with dual wield power attacks (1.5 multiplier for each swing).

a) 1.5 + 0.5 = 2x

c) 50 * 1.5 = 75% damage increase = 1.75x

Imo I think that c) is the most probable option, cause a total amount of bonus damage from three swings (a total of 6x multiplier) with dual wielding power attack would just be ridiculous, and I don't even count Savage Strike.

So, does anyone know the actual formula? — Unsigned comment by 87.116.231.140 (talk) at 11:36 on 17 June 2013

Unarmed combat page?

I don't really know where to post this, but should we remake an unarmed combat page? Like Unarmed Combat. It uses the information that was present on this page before the major reboot of this page. 193.190.253.150 02:20, 29 June 2013 (GMT)

I don't know that unarmed combat has enough unique content to warrant its own article, rather than the sub-section it has now. --Xyzzy ^Talk 04:22, 29 June 2013 (GMT)

It does have some unique content in a way (with the addition of the dawnguard perks and bonuses to werewolves and vampires), but it can be argued these bonuses as werewolf or vampire are better suited to be presented on the pages about werewolves and vampires themselves. In my opinion it doesn't matter though how unique it is, the wiki should be complete and a player should be able to find the details and information about unarmed combat if he whishes. Currently the Combat page has 2-3 lines discussing unarmed combat, and this is sufficient for the combat page in my opinion. But I think it would be nice to have an additional page (linked from the unarmed combat section here) discussing unarmed combat and brawls in more detail for the ones interested in power-maxing or using unarmed combat without enchanting bug-loops. Additionally it might be possible to include a list of mods that change unarmed combat on that page because it appears to be quite broken in the current state of Skyrim Vanilla, but I don't think that is allowed or handy as it needs to be updated quite frequentely and is not representing the core facts of the game as a wiki should. Unclejack (talk) 13:16, 29 June 2013 (GMT)

I'm pretty sure the information about melee combat and Brawls (which is a section later in the article) is pretty detailed. If someone wants to learn about how to improve unarmed damage then they can follow the links on the combat page, that should be sufficient. --BlackhawkXIII (talk) 17:40, 8 August 2013 (GMT)

Stamina and power attacks

The main page says that as long as you have 1 stamina, you can power attack with full damage, so for example if you ate some beef stew you could keep on power attacking until its restore stamina effect wore off, or if you have Lady Stone active you can power attack all the time with full damage.

I think this used to be true, but isn't anymore; can someone verify my perceptions? It seems to me that now, if you don't have enough stamina to pay the full cost of the power attack, then you get the green flash and the attack converts to a regular attack. --Morrolan (talk) 22:59, 17 July 2013 (GMT)

You are correct, with only one stamina, you can power attack with full damage. Guard of Dragons^{Speak To Me} 18:13, 8 August 2013 (GMT)

This conversation is redundant to the topic above. Please contribute any relevant input there. --Xyzzy ^Talk 19:39, 8 August 2013 (GMT)

Mounted Combat finishing moves?

Just as the title says, are there any finishing moves when you're fighting from horseback? If not it should be noted at the bottom or in the finishing moves section. --Dotto88 (talk) 03:44, 2 August 2013 (GMT)

I have never seen one, but I've only rarely actually managed to hit anything when fighting from horseback. It's pretty unwieldy. --Morrolan (talk) 00:00, 7 August 2013 (GMT)

I use mounted combat a fair amount, and I have never seen one. I don't think they exist, but I don't know if there is any way to verify this in the game data. --Xyzzy ^Talk 19:41, 8 August 2013 (GMT)

I don't have Skyrim on PC but I thought there was a way to view a list of the finishing moves via the CK. If someone could check it then that'd be cool. Until otherwise confirmed I will add it as a note.--Dotto88 (talk) 04:06, 26 October 2013 (GMT)

I've just seen the note, and would like to remove it until this is all cleaned up. Horseback combat isn't feasible; that is absolutely spot-on, Morrolan. To go into more detail, I would remove the note as we wouldn't say for definite that finishing moves can happen. DRAGON GUARD^(TALK) 22:47, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Off-hand weapon speed

There seems to be some uncertainty about off-hand weapon speed. Skyrim:One-handed states that "Attacks with the primary (right) hand are 10% faster than those with the off (left) hand", while this article used to say that "...attacks with the weapon in the "off-hand" (typically the left hand) take 50% longer", although this was removed with the summary "Both left and right handed attacks have same speed". Can somebody verify, preferably in the game data, which claim is correct, please? --Xyzzy ^Talk 13:24, 15 October 2013 (GMT)

There is a multiplier in console which allows to change and view the speeds for both hands: WeaponSpeedMult & LeftWeaponSpeedMult. And yes They are the same. This is certain. Case closed.

And really don't know where this left-hand is slower than right BS came from, but it is easily testable both by looking at the animations and via the console

Heyjude ^Talk 15:29, 23 October 2013 (GMT)

IMO, this is not yet "case closed". Are you sure that the multiplier is not simply that, a factor that the base speed is multiplied by? The game data can be quite complex, and visual comparisons are not valid for testing purposes. Verification is still needed. --Xyzzy ^Talk 18:07, 23 October 2013 (GMT)

I'm sorry I did not mean to be rude, but this case is really closed :) Take 2 weapons and hit them you will see that they strike at the same speed ;) If left-hand was 50% slower wouldn't you be feeling it? (I hope you are not challenging the fact that humans are capable of detecting 50% speed difference) But this is not a technical answer to that so I change to Leftweaponspeedmult to 1.5 and yes there WAS a difference. And you could easily feel it. But when both are set to 1 (Default in everyone :) ) They are the same.

Your reverting my change back to the former one is really offensive, it is just defending a baseless idea out of the sky. Where was it mentioned in the first place anyway?

I hope you my explanation above makes everything clear :)

Heyjude ^Talk 23:33, 24 October 2013 (GMT)

I apologize if the reversion seemed rude. It's wiki policy, however; when someone changes something major such as that without first reaching a consensus, that change is reverted and the editor is advised to check the talk page. As long as Xyzzy (or any other editor) feels that it's not sufficiently tested, then the edit should not be made. I have no real opinion here, I'm just enforcing wiki policy. Xolroc (talk) 21:44, 24 October 2013 (GMT)

Okay you are saying that consensus has to be reached? Where was the consensus when someone came up with an idea that is not officially/unofficialy confirmed/observed/mentioned?

I'm just trying to correct the wrong information

heyjude (talk) 21:44, 24 October 2013 (GMT)

We assume that the consensus had been reached then. Searching through the entire page history is infeasible, and there may even have been off-site discussion, so we can't prove whether there was or not, but the policy is to assume that it's correct. Basically, if patrollers were doing their job, an unsupported edit adding that information would have been removed. I know how you feel; I have ocd so I feel compelled to correct wrong information too; we just have to make sure it's actually wrong and that everyone agrees that it's wrong first. Xolroc (talk) 22:07, 24 October 2013 (GMT)

(←) Information that has been present on a page has presumed consensus given the traffic the site sees. In this case the information has been present on the page from 4 December 2011, that's nearly two years, and it was added at the release of Skyrim when the site got a huge spike in traffic, hence everyone who has read it and agreed has added their consensus to it being accurate. All we ask when removing historical information is to have tested thoroughly to completely negate any user-side discrepancies and show that there isn't a single possibility of you misunderstanding what you see. So far you have used in-game animations as your basis and failed to back-up your findings in the CK with anything beyond "you can see the difference in the game", this is not a proper test. You need to satisfy a "beyond reasonable doubt" measure to change the information. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 22:23, 24 October 2013 (GMT)

Not every change on the wiki needs concensus; if you're reasonably sure you're right, and it's not likely to be controversial, go ahead and do it. I think the problem in this case is more that a conversation was already started. It's just common courtesy to see the conversation through. If the issue is as clear-cut as you claim, that shouldn't take long. Unfortunately, I can't currently try Skyrim, but based on what I remember, the whole dual wielding setion seems kind of dubious... Unless I did something horribly wrong, I'm sure I didn't get twice the amount of attacks compared to using only one weapon - theoretically or otherwise. Weroj (talk) 22:58, 24 October 2013 (GMT)

First off, Heyjude, you're right, the animation speed of the left and right weapons appears to be no different when swung once (just going based on my internal clock). However, try repeatedly swinging one weapon, then repeatedly swinging the other. You'll notice that your left weapon is slower than your right weapon, even if they're identical weapons. I think there's a cool-down time of some kind between swings, and it's different for each hand. It doesn't seem like it's 50%, though. I'm not sure how left vs. right speeds play into dual-wielding in any event, though, since true dual wielding, as far as I know, is clicking both buttons at the same time, which attacks with both weapons at the same time (not counting power attacks, where the animation is different), and that's much slower than a single-weapon attack if you have no perks. That might be 50% slower, but it seems like more than that to me. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 01:04, 25 October 2013 (GMT)

By my observation, repeatedly attacking with a dragonbone mace in the right hand is slightly faster than the left hand. You seem to recover from the swing slightly faster with the right hand. I tested this by equipping just one mace first in my right hand, then left, and repeated it twice. In this case, a 10% difference seems possible to me.

However, I then tried it again by equipping a dagger in each hand, then tapping first the right mouse key as fast as I could, then doing the same with the left mouse key. The left hand attack took much longer to complete than the right hand attack in this case; 50% may be a reasonable approximation here.

In summary, there seems to be some complexity to this question. Some game data exploration would be really helpful. --Xyzzy ^Talk 06:00, 26 October 2013 (GMT)

I've looked at the various actor values and game settings and such in the CK, and I don't see anything that gives any clear cut info. I suspect much of it is done in the game code itself. A second set of eyes wouldn't hurt, though, as there are a lot of settings, and someone else might think to search for something I didn't. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 08:31, 26 October 2013 (GMT)

Hey, this is my first time piping up on UESP, don't have an account yet, but I think some of the statements in question bear reconsideration regardless. "Dual-Wielding is a fighting style where one-handed weapons are used in both hands and blocking is prevented. While it should theoretically double damage output, it only increases damage per second by 33% because attacks with the weapon in the "off-hand" (typically the left hand) take 50% longer." - This is the statement in http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Combat#Melee_Style_Comparison that brought me to this talk page. There are some clear issues here, regardless of the right vs. left hand attack swing speed. First, you can't swing both weapons independently the way you can with single-hand casting spells. The animation for swinging one weapon will make you wait to swing the other weapon. The only way to attack with both weapons at once is a two-handed double slash, which has a different animation, certainly does take longer than a single-hand attack, and also has a longer "recovery" period. For gameplay purposes, in open combat, this is the only non-power-attack that there's any advantage to using over simply having a weapon in one hand only, so this is what SHOULD be compared, at least in the article on melee combat styles I'm referencing here. It's likely that exact timeframe comparisons of that will only be accomplished with video evidence, as the difference is primarily in the animation length. Likewise, the double power attack hits three times, but seems to take less than twice as long as a normal single weapon power attack, compensating by having a very high stamina cost. This also is more worthy of comparison than whether the single-hand swing speed of the offhand is slightly slower, in my eyes a relative triviality. 99.189.33.106 07:02, 27 October 2013 (GMT)

While it is somewhat trivial, it is still worth documenting. My character is currently running around with a melee weapon equipped in one hand and a spell in the other, and I have definitely noticed that I can strike more rapidly if I equip the weapon in my right hand. You make a good point about the wording in the article, though. Since you can't swing two one-handed weapons independently, I agree that the relevant DPS and usage comparisons here are:

• single strike with one weapon DPS versus double strike with two weapons DPS, normal and power attack

• main hand DPS versus off hand DPS, normal and power attack

That's what we should be documenting. Stamina usage is a whole 'nother topic. --Xyzzy ^Talk 14:18, 27 October 2013 (GMT)

(←) The cool thing about dual wielding are the perks, which affect weapon speed and the power attacks. If you're using a dagger and a sword, and have the dual flurry perks, you can swing your main hand much faster than if you were using a shield and a sword - either 35% or 20% + 35% = 55% faster, depending on how those perks add up... that's the fastest way to "dual wield", rather than using the ineffective swinging both weapons at once attack. (The speeds for both of those methods should definitely be documented, though.)

In regards to this claim in the article: For example, if you have a mace in your right hand, but you have a dagger in your left hand, both weapons will have the same attack speed as a dagger.[verification needed] Having a dagger in the left hand certainly makes power attacks a lot faster, but it's a bit complicated... does it really have "the same attack speed as the dagger", or is it just faster? Also, if you use a dagger and a dagger, there's an annoying extra animation (where you reverse your grip on the daggers, IIRC), and the following power attack is painfully sluggish.

Another thing worth documenting is that when you murder an enemy by dual wielding, the execution animations never play... You have to finish off enemies by attacking with a single weapon only, and I think it needs to be the main hand, too - no executions with the off-hand.

...In conclusion, the dual wielding section on the article is a horrible mess at the moment. I think the most effective approach to fixing it would be for someone with a good grip on dual-wielding to just systematically rewrite that section from scratch. Weroj (talk) 17:26, 27 October 2013 (GMT)

Invisible Decapitation

I've had this happen where as soon as the head goes flying the body will become invisible. It's still lootable but it disappears. --Dotto88 (talk) 04:21, 26 October 2013 (GMT)

Odd. I've never seen this happen. Did it occur for you on PS3 or have you been able to start playing on PC? I just read your previous post, which makes this question moot. Is this a one-time glitch or have you seen it more than once? --Xyzzy ^Talk 05:40, 26 October 2013 (GMT)

Ragdolling skeletons

An editor recently added skeletons to the list of creatures that can't be ragdolled. I went and tested it on the 3 skeletons that respawn at the altar south of Sightless Pit, and got mixed results. The two flanking skeleton archers could be ragdolled with a 3-word Unrelenting Force, but the main two-handed sword-wielding skeleton that rises from the bier couldn't. This looks to me like it needs further testing to see which other skeletons, if any, can't be ragdolled, because some definitely can. The sword-wielding skeleton at this location may be a special case. --Xyzzy ^Talk 18:40, 8 February 2014 (GMT)

Unarmed Power Attacks

An unregistered user has repeatedly edited the base unarmed power attack base damage from 1x to 2x. RH undid with the first edit, stating, "Data is, I believe, taken from game setting fCombatUnarmedCritDamageMult". I'm not entirely sure what that means, but I think it wouldn't hurt if someone more knowledgeable than I were to double check/give a second opinion so this can be settled for sure. •WoahBro^►talk 16:28, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

CSList says the multiplier is 1, though the ID seems to reference critical damage? —<({Quill-Tail>> 17:03, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

(edit conflict) That's a game setting found in the CK. I just did a few quick tests, and as it turns out, it's a bit more complicated than a simple ×1 or ×2. One-handed power-attack punches do ×2 damage, but the flurry of blows from a two-handed power-attack punch is three blows at ×1 damage. It seems that the IP and I were both right. I think another row in the table is the simplest solution, but we still need to figure out what values to put. The stamina use for a one-handed punch is less than a that of a one-handed weapon (×0.8), but for a two-handed flurry, it's ×0.8 per punch, so ×2.4 in total. These values don't agree with the values we currently have at all, and I don't even know how to figure out the stagger chance. I'll do some more poking around in the CK later and see if I can find anything out. Unfortunately, it's a bit of a crap-shoot finding settings in the CK. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 17:05, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

Power Attack Chart is wrong... ...and some funny person keeps reverting it when corrected. Why would unarmed power attacks deal 1xdamage ? The word Power Attack should be pretty obvious about the damage not just being all equal to a normal attack. There are 2 different unarmed power attacks, dual attack doing a total of 3x damage (3x1) and one handed power attacks dealing 2x damage just like power attacks with a single weapon.— Unsigned comment by Harkon's Demise (talk • contribs) at 18:12 on 27 June 2014

I brought this up in the topic directly above this. The reason it keeps getting reverted is because it is what has been there uncontested for a long time and then suddenly changed. As you'll see in the topic above, we're trying to make sure everything is correct. •WoahBro^►talk 18:20, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

D'oh! I was forgetting that I had stamina reduction from the one-handed skill tree in my testing. This makes more sense now: it looks like the stamina multiplier for unarmed is 1, but with a minimum weapon weight of 1. It therefore requires 42 stamina to execute a power attack, per the formula on the page. I've updated the table accordingly. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 20:30, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

Stagger

There are a lot of variables related to stagger in the CK. It's unclear where our values were pulled from and if they match what's in the CK. Because of the random nature of it, it's difficult to determine stagger chances. The CK would lead me to believe that staggering may be less for daggers than for other one-handed weapons, for example, but whether that applies to power attacks is unclear. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 20:31, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

Body block

I've just realised that one can block arrows and certain spells by using various items. Being attacked by some unusually powerful archer I've just grabbed a body of last killed thief and carried it in front of me until reached meelee range. Just like in fancy hollywood movies :D Perhaps this should be added as a note here? ZLOJ

Brawling Issue

I declare the activation of the Brawl Bugs Patch so the comment could be considered out of scope. Erik the Slayer from Rorikstead was chosen by the Hired Muscle Quest as the brawl target. The issue is that if Player exits the tavern during the brawl, the other participant would be expected to exit as well, and continue the fight. This didn't happen,- moreover, on immediately re-entering the inn Erik was found not to be in brawl mode and was completely healed with no "memory" of what had just occurred. Was this as intended by design?--Lmstearn (talk) 15:21, 2 April 2015 (GMT)

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