Lore talk:Hero/Archive 1

This is an archive of past Lore talk:Hero discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Moving Article

Alright, this article needs to be moved, but the question is where? Does it belong more in the General section, as a part about the role the player takes in each of the games, or should it go in the Tamriel section as a source of history? I'm not sure, so what does everyone else think? --Ratwar 15:00, 27 April 2007 (EDT)

I'd vote for Tamriel. The General namespace is for things not at all related to the games, like info about Bethesda, fan-fiction, and stuff like that. Tamriel is about the lore common to all the games. Personally, I'm not sure this article needs to exist at all, but if it does, Tamriel makes more sense than General to me. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 15:28, 27 April 2007 (EDT)

A fitting Quote?

Eh? What debate? I was just joking around, but it really is the definitive quote for the subject, and its always a tenuous topic (certainly in terms of lore!) without it.Temple-Zero 20:29, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

Excuse my ignorance, I do not know which quote you're talking about, and without it your (now deleted) comment did not make much sense to me. So what quote? --Benould^•T•C 20:37, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

"Every event is preceded by a prophecy, but without the Hero, there is no event." -Zurin Arctus

Martin?

Well, he does save the world, survives the Battle of Bruma, has the power to shatter an ancient powerful artifact, and becomes a Demi-God, kills a daedric prince and "Closes shut the jaws of Oblivion". Is he a hero? --Arch-Mage Matt^Talk 04:00, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Not by the standards of this page. "Hero" is just a cooler way of saying "the player" - which honestly doesn't sound half as badass as "hero" :P --SerCenKing ^Talk 12:27, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Hero of Destiny

In Paradise, Mankar Camoran calls the player the Hero of Destiny, is this important enought to add to the page?--Arch-Mage Matt^Talk 00:16, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Point of this Article?

I don't think this page should exist.

Many more people than the protagonists of the games are referred to as "heroes" (or heroines) at various points. For instance, Oreyn Bearclaw is called a hero in Morrowind and I'm pretty sure there have been others. This page implies that only the player characters from the game can be called a "hero" or "heroine", which is pretty clearly wrong.

Luckily, it isn't linked from many places. Other thoughts? rpeh •T•C•E• 21:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, the player character is one of the most important characters in Elder Scrolls history. What if... we had individual articles for the Heroes, like a page for the Hero of Arena and the Hero of Daggerfall (and so on)? Then this page can just link to those. -- Jplatinum16 22:06, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah... that would be awful hard to do because everyone choses different races, names, classes, factions, etc. We'd have to be very unspecific.--Arch-Mage Matt^Talk 22:16, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

We - kind of - do that already. Most relevant Lore articles link to their game-space equivalents (eg, Lore:Sanguine, Lore:Molag Bal etc). I don't think one can really go beyond that, because certain players might not want to complete certain quests, so saying that the Hero of Morrowind DID kill Farvyn Oreyn or that the Hero of Oblivion DID cause carnage in Bleaker's Way isn't right. Such things should, I think, be left to the relevant pages in the Lore namespace. rpeh •T•C•E• 22:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

i have to agree...but i don't really come here so...i dunno...--GUM!!! 23:02, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Okay then, hmm... I do think a page for the player character should exist, but this page does seem to suggest other heroes besides the PC. And heroes (as in, a real entity like Daedric Princes) aren't really a topic in ES lore. So I think this page shouldn't exist, but a page for the PC should exists. -- Jplatinum16 00:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

I think this page should stay. Just because Oreyn Bearclaw is called a hero doesn't make him a player character. If there's official evidence of the PCs being called Heros, this page shouldn't be deleted. It isn't necessary to create seperate pages for each hero, because like Arch-Mage Matt said things would need to be be pretty vague. Legoless 10:51, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

blessed

Who bless heroes In Morrowind ,I think the one who blessed the hero of morrowind is azura,the hero of oblivion is blessed by talos(Knight of nine)(Vvardfell 11:36, 27 November 2010 (UTC))

Savior of bruma

Should Savior of Bruma be one of Champion of Cyrodil's title.Moreover, Count Andel Indarys have call the player using the name savior of cheydihal althought it is not important(Vvardfell 13:14, 8 December 2010 (UTC))

I'd really rather not. If we start listing every single title, that list will grow far too long (all the guild titles, for instance). The ones we have now are the important ones. rpeh •T•C•E• 13:38, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Not listing all title, just list the title that gain during main quest, but it is okay to for listing them(Vvardfell)

Skyrim

In the teaser trailer, t mentions the "dragon born" which likely refers to the hero in it. Should we add that to this page?Vladashram 16:41, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

No. We don't know that the Dragon Born is the hero. rpeh •T•C•E• 16:54, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Well we have some form of confirmation in the new game informer, which mentions the player is the Dragonborn Vladashram 05:17, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but that hasn't been confirmed yet. One article is not confirmation. We'll have to wait to add Dovahkiin. — Unsigned comment by Para01 (talk • contribs) on 17 January 2011

It's now been pretty much confirmed (which it hadn't when I made my reply), but it still shouldn't go on. We don't know what is going to happen in the game beyond some generalities about Alduin, so there's nothing useful that can be added here at this point. rpeh •T•C•E• 17:10, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I think we should add the Dovahkiin, because he is almost definitely going to be the Hero of Skyrim, unless Bethesda suddenly make a U-turn and completely change the story-line. It's been confirmed by E3, Todd Howard and numerous reliable sources that the Dovahkiin is going to be the player. POMC S117 23:24, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

We'll add Skyrim when it's release and we know what it is that the hero actually does. rpeh •T•C•E• 23:26, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I agree with the previous discussion. We still don't know anything about the "Prophecy", if you will. Almost all Skyrim stuff should be kept out of lore until the game is released, with exceptions possibly being made for historical info. This page is very sensitive in that it deals directly with an over-arching game element, and is a prime example of what not to edit during pre-release stages of development. --Legoless 23:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Eternal Champion and Hero of Daggerfall

Are they one and the same? Watching the end sequence of Arena, and the intro of Daggerfall makes it seem that way. — Unsigned comment by Doctormccorm (talk • contribs) at 20:02 on March 2, 2011

I just noticed on the hero page it has the heros' birth years. Does it say that in the games, or is there another source?--Doctormccorm 13:34, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

The source is included on the article already. rpeh •T•C•E• 13:47, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Missed that. I guess that answers my question then.--Doctormccorm 14:23, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the 'needs to be answered' template, as that Daggerfall game guide confirms they are two separate people. Legoless 15:37, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Vatasha Trenelle/Josian Kaid

I've removed the recent edit calling the Hero of Battlespire "Vatasha Trenelle or Josian Kaid". These were the two fellow battlemage apprentices who the player had to save, and while it would make sense that the player would be the opposite one depending on gender, it sounds too much like speculation. If anyone can provide any sort of evidence supporting this idea, even an unofficial forum post from a dev, please re-add it as I've love this edit to be made. Legoless 17:09, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I couldn't find any source for it so I'd consider my edit to be incorrect. So unless someone knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is actually true, and can provide evidence to back it up, I was wrong. Not sure why I thought this was true, I'm blaming sleep deprivation. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 17:15, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Race/Gender

It's seems to be somewhat common knowledge that the Nerevarine was a Dunmer male and the Champion was an Imperial male. This has been bothering me for the longest time, as I can't find any sort of reference for this. If this could be decided on, the ambiguity could be removed from many lore pages. Obviously this clashes with Bethesda's ideals of the players creating their own lore, but so does the official birth dates of the Heroes of Daggerfall and Arena so this shouldn't be a concern. This information has to come from somewhere.

On a related note, is "Bendu Olo" the Campion's true name in a similar fashion to Talin/Eternal Champion? I definitely think it's worth including on the article. Although under the same circumstances that would make the Nerevarine's name "player", which certainly isn't right. Thoughts? --Legoless 23:18, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

The only reference for the gender and race of the Heros of OB and MW is the back of the MW box (which shows a male Dunmer in Bonemould armour) and the promo art for OB (which shows a male Imperial in steel armour). As for the names, Bendu Olo was a Admiral of the Imperial Navy (I cannot think of a referene off the top of my head) who later became the first Count of Anvil. This was just a default name for the player, a sort of "Place to Start". So in my opinion, the name should be mentioned as a note, but not listed as the OB hero's real name. The Nerevarine can be left as the Nerevarine.--Kalis Agea^{Yes? Contrib E-mail} 23:50, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the Colovian King was an insider Easter egg relating to the default character name, not the other way around (it's from PGE 3, if you're wondering). Would artwork be enough to support the race/gender, do you think? I've seen that Imperial dude often enough on the Collector's Edition box, but the Dunmer in bonemould armour has never struck me as bring the Nerevarine. --Legoless 00:08, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Well whether or not Bendu Olo was an easter egg or not, I don't think it should be anything but a note or an entry on the OB Easter Egg page. Overall, I think that the Art for both games was just a place for Bethesda to start and to show off their game/race graphics, not the actualy Heroes. It was the community who decided that these were meant to be the canon race/gender of the PCs. But in any event, I don't think it would matter what we do in the long run. Darn my indecisiveness... Kalis Agea^{Yes? Contrib E-mail} 00:21, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps we should wait for some further input. I'm hard-set on adding these details, but I can certainly see why they should be avoided or scrutinised. --Legoless 00:54, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, I'm pretty sure the Champion of Cyrodiil was an Imperial Male. If you start Oblivion, and wait a few minutes it will show the trailer (I'm sure it's other places also). Whenever it says 'Hero' or 'The One', it shows an Imperial Male dressed in what I think is Imperial Legion Armor. If Bethesda put this there, they obviously meant it. --Pickle 21:41, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

(←) It is vague intentionally, and Bethesda has been pretty clear on that point. All speculation comes from the community, because everyone deep down wants to believe that the Nerevarine is a real person and in order to be real you need a name and a face. People can't accept the fact that these are fictional people and due to the nature of the story in which they come out of, they not only do not but can not have a race or a name.

Playing as a human in Morrowind made the juxtaposition of an imperial against the highly xenophobic dunmer an important plot point. Not only did they have to unite and defeat Dagoth Ur, they needed to reject their racist ideology.

I think it's an important enough part of the series to stand by Bethesda's stance of ambiguity. Unless you think you know the Lore better than them, which would be a silly thing to think. — Unsigned comment by 50.102.26.108 (talk) at 06:26 on 24 July 2011 (GMT)

According to Oblivion Mobile, the Champion is indeed male. I've added this to the article. His race is still up for discussion. --Legoless 11:35, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

The game was a mobile game. It provided no race-selection because the game could not be large enough to choose such a thing. Male was a generic selection. Bethesda has made it clear many times that the characters and heroes of the game are completely up to the player. There is no canon in relation to gender or race. 64.139.231.51 22:45, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Due to the unpopularity with the gender and the above IP's argument, I think trying to define the hero's gender is not only controversial, but (as stated above) non-canon. For these reasons I'd recommend leaving the content off the article, despite how nice a definitive pronoun would be when writing articles. --Legoless 22:55, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

I always find it annoying when a game comes out and has lots of choices such as race,gender and morality and a few people try to label what is canon and what is not, as said above, bethesda leaves it up to us what to do with a character and the many paths they can choose such as good, evil etc its up to us. some articles around here only have one path of the heroes typed down, there are many paths, I consider these as attempts of someone trying to label something canon as they are ignoring the other possible paths and conclusions. it would be good if people conformed to wiki rules and stay neutral which means putting down all possible info and not what they think is the right info. a lot of pages need to be corrected to add all possible conclusions and not one. 86.179.236.182 00:40, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Lore articles remain vague when there are two possible outcomes, but if the only other outcome was to, for example, fail the quest, then the article will obviously state that it happened. --Legoless 14:11, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Frankly, deciding the gender and races of the heroes based on some random box art or trailer is plain foolish. Unless Bethesda comes right out and state that the figure that you saw is the hero, stop making assumptions. The figure that you saw could be anyone. Ongoingwhy 15:56, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Ok, the Champion of Cyrodill had to have had a race, right? And the Champion also had to have a gender right? In the CS, the default character is an imperial male named Bendu olodo (something like that anyway) and he's an imperial male. The point of an RPG is that you pick your race and gender, but the bottom line is that we can make an educated guess as to the race and gender of the Champion. Kitkat xxx ^{•Talk•Contrib•E-mail} 16:12, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

(←) The argument is about adding the gender and race to the article, right? It's perfectly fine to make an educated guess but I object to adding that guess to the article. An educated guess is just an educated guess. It's not a fact until proven. I too believe the Champion of Cyrodil to be an Imperial male, but until it's proven, I rather not have it in the article. And frankly, I seriously doubt the Nerevarine is a Dunmer. Ongoingwhy 16:25, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, what about the game trailer at the start of oblivion? It shows an imperial male closing oblivion gates, fighting enemies, and generally looking like a hero. Kitkat xxx ^{•Talk•Contrib•E-mail} 16:41, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I just rewatched the video to confirm what you said. That was a gameplay video probably from one of the developers. That is definitely not canonical. Ongoingwhy 16:50, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree. I can see a lot of evidence that it is an Imperial male, wheras the only real point against is that it can't be confirmed without a shadow of doubt. I agree that it doesn't belong in the article unless it is confirmed though. Kitkat xxx ^{•Talk•Contrib•E-mail} 17:04, 13 September 2011

Is this the same trailer as the one with the CGI Imperial male in steel armor making a pledge outside Kvatch? That most certainly isn't gameplay. --Legoless 18:05, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

this is just a thought but some where in skyrim its likly that there will be some book or other that refrences the hero like refrenceing the race and gender The sorrow 18:18, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

It is an Imperial male, but it is clearly not canonical because it was gameplay. Are we going to let the canonical race and gender of the Hero to be decided by whatever race a developer choses to play for a demo? Legoless, she said "It shows an imperial male closing oblivion gates, fighting enemies, and generally looking like a hero.". Ongoingwhy 18:20, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

She simply wished to state that at the start of the game, it does indeed show an imperial male. She has already admitted that she agrees with the imperial male thing not being in the article. Kitkat xxx ^{•Talk•Contrib•E-mail} 18:27, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

(←) Kitkat - he probably was an Imperial Male. See this page for another non CS reason. Ongoingwhy (and Legoless) your right - it shouldn't be added to this article. The Easter Eggs page is more suitable. And if you find information in-game that contradicts the CS this in-game information is right, because the wiki is a guide to gameplay therefore what is in-game comes 1st, CS 2nd. And im sure there'll be something to contradict anything we say, there always is. We must accept this fact. And let's call people by there name rather than genderising them. --KizC ^{·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•·} 18:22, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

This is the lore section. Nothing to do with gameplay. Ongoingwhy, I wasn't speaking of gameplay. See computer-generated imagery. I'm speaking of the guy in steel armor with the derpy smile. It is valid evidence, but not evidence enough to support including on the article. --Legoless 18:39, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I know :) And I disagree (to one small point), surely this is to do with game play. Aren't heros on the page all Player Characters? So wouldn't this mean that each Hero on there is based around the game play of its relative game? Although on the flip side (arguing in my head) aren't were are deciding some before 'game play' has begun? But wouldn't some of what happens in the game be relative to what happens before? And is the two 'Bendu Olo's' a coincidence, or is there a connection? --KizC ^{·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•·} 18:46, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

The gameplay reason is stronger than the CGI one, you know. Most people would also agree that he's just a normal guard, not the hero. Ongoingwhy 19:03, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

It looks as though everyone is in agreement that it won't go up on the lore page, but I just thought I'd contribute to the discussion. It does often seem a little bit clumsy, lore-wise, that the people of Tamriel would forget or never know the race and gender of their most famous heroes, and I can understand speculating on what their race and gender would be if there were to be a canonised story. That being said, it doesn't seem right to base your guesses on CG sequences, boxart or the CS settings, because it's given that character models are placed in them out of necessity. Bendu Olo is just a fun reference to an old game, with nothing to suggest it's more than a placeholder. --Admos 19:12, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the idea that people would forget the race or their heroes is entirely likely: look at the way Jesus is portrayed in the Western world as a white guy.

Anyway, this is all getting a bit speculative. Unless there are specific suggestions for the article, please can this continue on the Forums? rpeh •T•C•E• 19:15, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I had a feeling someone would pick me up on that with a real-world example. A good point. Plus, with information being passed on by hearsay or outlets like the Black Horse Courier, it's a miracle that the people of the ES universe know anything about current events, let alone past ones. --Admos 19:33, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

There is no documented proof that the heroes of Morrowind, Oblivion or even Skyrim are males. The Dunmer in bonemold armor for Morrowind is showing not the Nerevarine of the game, but merely a Dark Elf of Morrowind, (a possible Redoran or Hlaalu guard) the Dunmers home province. Same with Oblivion. Just because it shows an Imperial male dressed in Imperial Legion armor doesn't mean the Champion of Cyrodiil is a male. It shows a man (possibly an Imperial Legion Officer) of his home province of Cyrodiil. The Heroes of both games could be either male or female. Now for Skyrim, Sheogorath makes an appearance, and gives a small hint that he could be the Champion of Cyrodiil, however, Daedra have no actual gender, meaning they can be male or female. No one knows for certain of the hero gender/race of these TES games, for as already stated above, Bethesda leaves that entirely up to the player. TES games are open-ended, meaning you create your own character, race and gender to be the hero. If the Heroes race and gender for the TES games were set in stone, that wouldn't make much fun for roleplay now would it?--CryptsOfTheDead 17:40, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Guilds

people keep deleting information about the guilds on this page and their excuse is that its not heroic..sad really as the hero kvatch is just a title and doesn't mnean the champion is or has to be heroic, he/she can be evil or assassin.. bethesda gave us choices to be what we want to be, good or evil, but the editers keep removing info on guilds. there is no canon in terms of character type, choice or guilds they join, i think some wiki users here are being biased since they only adding infomation that a "good" hero did such as joining the knights of the nines. anyone else agree? 86.179.236.182 14:18, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Both myself and rpeh have replied to your concerns on his talk page. For the record, I will repeat myself by saying that the side questlines (guilds, etc.) have too many conflicts to be viable for inclusion on this article. The outcomes of the questlines will still be documented, without specifically naming the hero responsible. --Legoless 14:28, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

i see, i'm sorry for the rant but good rpg games have been ruined because people label only one ending or paths canon and it makes choices worthless, i don't want that for the elder scrolls, i like it to either acknowledge all possible outcomes or leave it ambiguous. either one is acceptable. 86.179.236.182 14:34, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter what you want to see; it's more of what's going to happen. Three people have tried to stop you, yet you continue and continue and continue. And perhaps you should read Lore:Third Era before you go all "woe is me". Elliot (talk) 14:37, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

i read it and i see there are no confirmed sources that some of these happened. killing mannimarco only happens if you join the mages guild and since the mention of a new archmage is listed how come there is no mention of a new gray fox or a listener? no sources and the article seems biased. some wiki this is. it seems you try to document one path and ignore the rest. the lore of third era should include the gray fox and listener. perhaps the other elder scroll wiki will be more professional 86.179.236.182 14:51, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Or perhaps you could edit the article yourself and add the Grey Fox and Listener, instead of complaining and calling the wiki unprofessional. --Legoless 14:55, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

i would but it would most likely get deleted since the common excuse is that its not heroic of the hero of kvatch to join the but very well i'll add to it but i ain't holding my breath. 86.179.236.182 15:01, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

"If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here." Don't take it personally if your contributions are heavily edited or scrapped entirely, especially in the lore namespace. --Legoless 15:49, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

(←) "killing mannimarco only happens if you join the mages guild and since the mention of a new archmage is listed how come there is no mention of a new gray fox or a listener?"

Listen to yourself! Why would anyone know of a new Gray Fox or Listener? The Thieves Guild is secretive and their leader even more so! This also applies to the Dark Brotherhood. I reckon less people know about the Dark Brotherhood than the Thieves Guild. Also, the Hero isn't the only person in Cyrodil. Anyone else could have killed Mannimarco. The reason why only you can kill Mannimarco in your game is because it's a game. Ongoingwhy 15:55, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Rumors about a new Grey Fox can be heard all around Cyrodiil in Oblivion. The wiki is for listing all available information, so while everyone in Tamriel may believe (for example) that King Bob died of old age, the article will obviously explain that he was assassinated or whatever. The same applies for the Dark Brotherhood's affairs and the re-writing of history caused by Count Corvus. --Legoless 21:09, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

speaking of which, why is it assumed that the Champion of Cyrodiil also restored the Knights of the Nine and entered the Shivering Isles? Nothing in the games ever states s/he did that, only that the events took place. For simplicities sake, and to avoid trying to make our own canon, only the main quest to end the Oblivion Crisis should be mentioned. — Unsigned comment by 71.198.52.172 (talk) at 18:54 on December 16, 2011

New format ideas?

It seems there's been lots of dispute about whether to keep this content and how to display it, but nothing's been done as yet. I thought I'd try and put out a few ideas.

• This article could be split into two sections for Player Heroes and NPC Heroes. I think it would be interesting to have a page specifically for all the characters who are referred to as heroes in the game universe, including NPCs. There would probably need to be a definition of 'hero' in place to decide which NPCs make the list. Martin comes to mind, he certainly fits the description of a 'hero':

A hero (heroine is usually used for females) (Greek: ἥρως, hḗrōs), in Greek mythology and folklore, was originally a demigod, their cult being one of the most distinctive features of ancient Greek religion.[1] Later, hero (male) and heroine (female) came to refer to characters who, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self sacrifice—that is, heroism—for some greater good of all humanity. This definition originally referred to martial courage or excellence but extended to more general moral excellence.

• Moving this page to Lore:Player Characters, General:Hero, or General: Player Characters. The characters as they appear in this list are already under |Lore:People and seem to have their own game-specific pages, i.e. the Nerevarine, so it might be a little redundant to have another second page about them in the Lore section.

• There could be more than one page. Lore:Hero would describe all Player and NPC Heroes and their positions in the game lore, and General: Player Characters would describe Player Heroes and all their possible positions, maybe including guilds and other factions?

• Removing this page altogether and making all links and references to Lore:Hero go directly to game specific pages or to their entries in Lore:People. Personally, I like having a page where all player characters and their roles in the game universe are described, but it makes sense if no other solution fits.

Thoughts? --Admos 14:27, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't find the suggestions of moving the page or adding "NPC" heroes very attractive. Only Cyrus and the Nerevarine have their own Lore:People entries, and I personally dislike the Nerevarine's one (as its not a person, its a title). The current layout could certainly be improved, but I think "less is better" is this case. The less we say specifically about the PCs, the better. Heck, just look at the amount of edits trying to remove the gender I added to the Champion of Cyrodiil. The terminology behind canon (or NPC) "heroes" isn't correct in this context; they are heroes in the traditional sense of the word, but this article is about Player Characters only. --Legoless 21:09, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Hero of Expansions

Following on from the discussion whether the Hero should have the deeds of various guilds atributed to them, I'd like to further and ask whether we can attribute the titles gained from the expansions? Surely all that is required to be Hero of Oblivion is to complete the Oblivion main quest, or to be the Hero of Morrowind is to complete the Morrowind main quest? The expansion quest lines are not part of the the main quest lines, and so it is possible for one players Champion of Cyrodil to not be Divine Crusader, they are still the Hero of Oblivion. I don't see how we can say that the Hero is not necessarily the head of all guilds (which I agree with) yet say they must have completed the expansions. In short, I beleive that only the titles gained from a games main quest (Hero of Kvatch, Nerevarine, Champion of Cyrodiil, etc) should be attributed to the Hero, not additional titles that it is possible to have (Divine Crusader, Blodskaal, etc)Wocrepus 13:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Based on the fact that the Hero of Oblivion appears as Sheogorath in Skyrim, I'd say that argument is invalid. --Legoless 19:56, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

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