Online talk:Fungal Grotto I

Separate Veteran dungeon?Edit

Question: should the Veteran version of this (and other Veteran dungeons) be detailed on a separate page? It appears that the only thing they share is the map. The monsters (including bosses) are completely different. You get different achievements for them. One of them you can't encounter until level 50+, and I think only if you're a member of one of the other Alliances. A walkthrough of one isn't likely to apply much to the other, and we're just going to run into all kinds of complications with how to represent the data in the sidebar - for instance, there are 2 bosses in the regular version and 3 in the Veteran version. The answer may have to wait until the game goes live. (I don't think any of the betas were long enough to reach level 50, so probably nobody really knows about all the Veteran stuff yet.) — TheRealLurlock (talk) 04:10, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

I would be inclined to keep them on the same page; they are, after all, the same place. I added support for "vetbosses" and "vetspeed" to the infobox to detail the differences in bosses and the target time for a speed run. You must be able to do the vet version under all alliances, because you can do the standard version under all alliances as well. If we need walkthroughs on the place pages at all, we will most likely do it with two separate sections, but "Walkthrough" and "Veteran Walkthrough" should suffice, particularly if the associated quests have their own walkthroughs anyway. On that note, do we need "walkthroughs" for places when they have quests tied to them? What different things would need to go in a walkthrough on this page that couldn't be covered by the quest walkthrough? Aside from that, the Veteran story of the dungeon is supposed to be a direct continuation of the previous story, so having those two quests connected by being listed on the same place page would be beneficial. Also, the entrance is in the same place, most of the cave is the same layout etc. --Enodoc (talk) 10:31, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

To be perfectly honest, most of the dungeons in this game hardly even need a walkthrough. They're mostly pretty linear, so it's difficult to get lost in them. Quest-related dungeons are a different story to a certain extent. But the standard ones are all kinda same-old, same-old. Some of the Public Dungeons even literally use the same map. I noticed that when I was uploading the map images yesterday and I got some "Duplicate File" warnings. (These may be temporary? Some of them were in zones not accessible in the beta.) With the exception of the boss fights, there's not a whole lot different. Sure, we should point out the location of notable treasure (mostly just the Skyshards in the Public Dungeons, because the rest of the treasure other than creature-drops seems to be just crafting ingredients). But a play by play of "turn right here, go up the stairs, etc." seems unnecessary, since the maps seem to be designed specifically to be impossible to get lost in... — TheRealLurlock (talk) 14:05, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

Sure, so we can do a "background information, general layout and treasures" thing, and save the detailed walkthroughs for the quests. The only case where I think this would need to be a bit different is for the 6 smaller dungeons in each zone (the so-called "Solo Dungeons"), as I don't think they have quests to go with them. For the rest (Public Dungeons, Group Dungeons, Veteran Dungeons, and the POIs with interiors), they most all have quests of some sort. --Enodoc (talk) 15:25, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

The boss fights may need explanations, as they aren't all just "kill this". Most have special events or things that happen during them. Jeancey (talk) 16:16, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

For the record: Solo Dungeon = Public Dungeon. And there seem to be 7 per zone. (We need to be consistent with the terminology here - it was confusing at first because if anything it's the Group Dungeons that seem to better fit the definition of "Solo", because if you go in without a group, you WILL be all by yourself, which is not true in the so-called "Solo Dungeons". We'll need to come up with another term for things which aren't either Public or Group Dungeons - most (all?) of those are quest-related, so perhaps "Quest Dungeons"? And yeah, I can see discussing the boss fights (although some of that may go on the boss's pages instead?), and maybe a little "keep an eye out for the bookshelves here, which may contain Skill Books". But most of the treasure is random and trivial, other than what you get from creatures and the boss fight. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 16:58, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

On the issue of boss fight mechanics and quest details, I would really rather not have them in a dungeon walkthru section that starts out being a guide to the dungeon layout and loot/shard compendium. I could easily end up finding out stuff I would rather discover for myself and having to go to the quest or boss page walkthru to find out more is better than tripping over the information by mistake. --Swordmage (talk) 18:00, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

(←) In MMOs in general, and ESO is no exception to this, the only loot of consequence in Group Dungeons or instances is from the bosses. The dungeons are generally linear and the only thing that is difficult or needs explaining are the boss fights. I believe that we should include the boss fights on the page, but below where the page would be when you open it. That way, if they are just looking for a location, layout description, achievement list, etc, they can get it without spoilers. If they want all the boss fights, they have that too. We should also have the boss fight info on the boss pages, mainly so that if someone needs help on a specific boss, then can find that info even when they don't want spoilers for the rest of the bosses. This is how, by and large, other MMO wikis have handled this.

In regards to the naming, solo dungeons are solo because you don't HAVE to be in a group to complete them at level. Group dungeons are named as such because you CANNOT complete them solo at level. Also, while these have quests, the solo dungeons also generally have a quest associated with them, and if they don't they do have an achievement that can act as a sort of non-quest goal. I don't really see a need to name them anything else than what the data has named them. Jeancey (talk) 18:40, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

So the boss fight info would go on the quest page, the boss page, and the place page? Three places seems a bit repetitive to me, but if that's the way MMO wikis usually do it, then sure. Can we transclude it off the boss page to the other two?

On Dungeons, I think there seems to be a bit of a discontinuity in how we are each defining them, so here's the way I've been doing it (based on the icons and the way they are presented in-game):

Each zone has 6 "Solo Dungeons", which can be completed by yourself but you'll find other players in there, therefore it is, in a sense, public. They don't have quests, but are connected to the "Cave Explorer" achievements. These use the Dungeon icon

Each zone has 1 "Public Dungeon", identified when you approach by a pop-up which says You have discovered a public dungeon. In a public dungeon, the level of difficulty is increased and other players can enter with you regardless of group status. This message didn't pop up when I went to any of those 6 above (although maybe it should have done, and that's the problem in definition I have?). These are more difficult than the 6, do have an associated quest, and their achievements are in the "Public Dungeons" group. The Public Dungeon icon is , although one of those I found seems to actually use the .

Each zone has 1 "Group Dungeon", we agree on these. These use

All the other dungeons are not considered "Dungeons", and for the purposes of what we're talking about shouldn't be considered as such either. That's something with every other icon

--Enodoc (talk) 19:27, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

They typically don't go on the quest pages, since the quests are often about finding things after you kill the boss, not killing the boss themselves. I haven't looked at the Dungeon quests yet, so I don't know for sure. And transcluding seems to be the correct thing to do here.

Many of the Solo Dungeons DO have related quests, which usually involve finding something in the dungeon and bringing it to someone outside the dungeon (see Repentant Son and You Have to Break a Few, which are examples of this).

I also haven't seen any public dungeons, do you have an example of these? Jeancey (talk) 19:33, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

I took a look at a few of the MMO wiki I used over the years and the location of the strategy for boss fights varies: some are on the dungeon page, some are on the boss page, but I didn't find any on both. Thus I think we are free to do things the way it is most comfortable for us. I found the Rift wiki format particularly disturbing since the dungeon page had a list of bosses with the descriptive info and the strategy intermixed (and thus almost unavoidable). I agree that the primary home for the strategy should be the boss page; however, I am not sure we need to translocate it to the dungeon page when a simple click or two gets us to it. --Swordmage (talk) 20:14, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

Good shout on those side quests, Jeancey. I guess what I was thinking was that the Six have no directly associated "Dungeon Quests" like the Public and Group Dungeons do.

So it turns out that all of the dungeons in the "Public Dungeon" set appear to be using the Dungeon icon rather than the Public Dungeon icon . I don't know if that's a design decision or an oversight, but it makes it more difficult to determine between the Six and the One. Maybe that's what they were going for? I guess we'll have to wait and see if they've changed how the Public Dungeon pop-up appears, but I would say if it doesn't appear for the first of the Six, but does appear for the One, then they're coded differently and should be treated independently of each other. --Enodoc (talk) 22:54, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

(←) I think it would be better for the boss fight strategies to be on the dungeon page, rather than on the boss page, that way you have everything for the dungeon in one place instead of having to click through all the different dungeon bosses. I mean, it is kind of a spoiler, but we've always documented spoilers anyway, and they're even more unavoidable in an MMO, since you end up doing much the same content over and over again if you play multiple characters. I also think that any veteran dungeon information should be on the same page, integrated into the main article about the boss but somewhat separate. Also, does anyone know if ESO bosses drop randomized loot like bosses in other mmos do (where they always drop a random valuable item from a specific list that only that boss has but the actual item varies)? --AN|L (talk) 23:09, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

Usually they aren't random in other MMOs, but from a specific list. You might get a bow or a sword, but the ONLY way to get that bow or that sword is from THAT boss. Jeancey (talk) 23:18, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

That's what I meant. Fixed. --AN|L (talk) 00:21, 26 March 2014 (GMT)