Oblivion talk:Security

Skeleton KeyEdit

Skeleton Key is doubtlessly levelled item. Today I did the quest mentioned, as a lvl 2 character, and got a scroll of NightEye for 30s (nominal price 7 gold) for finishing it. (oh, joy! Incredibly generous, wasn't it?) I've also heard of people obtaining it for some daedric shrine quest so likely it's a "random drop" prize item for quests. --Vook 04:16, 30 May 2006 (EDT)

Forget the above. The key you get is from Nocturnal quest and you just don't gain it in "through the nightmare, darkly" - you just recover it together with all the removed items you lose at the start of the quest, and it displays message "Skeleton key added", giving impression the quest rewards you with it. This is obviously wrong, you won't get the skeleton key back if you didn't get it from Nocturnal in the first place. Therefore on level 2, doing the nightmare quest I obviously didn't get the key, and whoever reported they got the key for that quest, just got confused by the message. They got the key from Nocturnal, and simply recovered it back with the rest of the inventory at the end of Nightmare, not as a reward.--Vook 04:17, 30 May 2006 (EDT)

Effect of skill?Edit

this page fails to mention exactly what effect security skill has on the lockpicking mini-game. anyone know? Sahuagin 16:52, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

My guess has always been that your security skill factors into how quickly the tumblers go up and down. The guide suggests as much: "The higher your Security skill, the easier it is to lodge a tumbler in its set point". If so, presumably there would be a noticeable difference in speed between 5 and 49, but not between 24 and 25 (i.e., the skill is making a difference, not just novice vs apprentice). But I've never tried to test it. --Nephele 17:11, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

The speed difference is based on the skill number, and higher skills ive you an eaiser time (even from 5 to 24). It is still nessicary to be good at the mini game to pick the locks though, even with the somewhat better condition at higher levels, rewarding players for being good at a minigame and not high in a skill. This is counter-intuitive, I can pick a very hard lock with a Level 1 Altmer spellsword with a security of 5. Dylnuge 15:04, 9 November 2006 (EST)

Effect of Torches?Edit

Using torches does give a considerable advantage when lockpicking. Does anyone know the exact value of using a torch? I'm not sure, but I estimate that the effect could be up to 20 points of skill.

I've never noticed a difference from torches, contrary to what the main page says. I suspect that the suggestion that torches make it easier makes people perceive them as easier, but they're probably not. Then again, I won't argue if someone can prove to me that they do make a difference, either. Does anybody know if there's anything in the Construction Set that indicates that they actually have an effect?--Robin Hood 19:42, 24 March 2007 (EDT)

I haven't tested this effect at all myself. All I can say is that there isn't anything in the construction set to suggest that torches should have an effect on lockpicking, although something like this could possibly be hardwired into the game. --Nephele 23:21, 24 March 2007 (EDT)

Torches do not affect lock picking at all. And the CS doesn't say otherwise. Removing. 77BeTa77 16:07, 28 March 2008 (EDT)

It seems torches just act as a placebo for people... --Merco 16:46, 28 March 2008 (EDT)

Patterns when LockpickingEdit

There seems to be some disagreement about whether or not there is a pattern to the speed at which pins drop when you are picking a lock. The notes originally said:

There is somewhat of a pattern to how the pins drop. If a pin drops very quickly (almost immediately), then the subsequent "pick" will be significantly longer. So keep picking until the pin drops quickly, then use the next "pick" to attempt to break it.

This note was then changed to:

Contrary to what many claim, there is no actual pattern to how the pins drop. The trick is to not pay attention to how the pins drop, but rather to watch how they rise. Watch for a pin that rises slowly, those are the ones you want to click to lock into place. You can however manage to catch the really fast pins if you time it just right, but that is more luck than anything else, so save your lockpicks and watch for the slow ones.

I have changed it back to the original statement, because based on my experience this tip really does work. When you get to high-level locks, there is not enough time to respond to the speed of a slow pin once it is already rising; you need to guess ahead of time that the pin is about to rise slowly. And by waiting for very rapid pin drops, I've been very successful at guessing when the pin is going to rise slowly. For example, with a new character (Security skill<25), I've been able to repeatedly pick very hard locks without breaking any lockpicks. And I didn't originally add this tip; I learned the tip from reading this page. So I think that the original tip is very useful and should be kept on the page. --Nephele 11:42, 19 December 2006 (EST)

I have to agree with the "Contrary to what many claim..." note. Like the torches thing, I suspect that it's a matter of suggestion and luck. Also, let's say (for argument's sake) that this is done on a scale of 10 speeds, with 10 being the fastest. If a pin randomly drops at speed 8 one time, then chances are it'll be slower the next time. This gives the appearance that pins rising or dropping slower after they drop quickly. If you sit there and play with them long enough, you'll get two fast drops in a row quite easily.--Robin Hood 19:49, 24 March 2007 (EDT)

As I said above, this is a quirk that I'll stand by as being a valid tip. I'm pretty familiar with statistics and random coincidences, and I'm pretty obsessive about objectively testing tips. This pattern occurs much too consistently to just be random.

Yes, you do occasionally get two fast drops occurring in a row, but if there are 10 speeds then the order of the drops in that case is 9 - 10 - 1. There is a distinct difference between the second-fastest and the fastest drop: the fastest one doesn't even seem to stick at the top, it just bounces straight back down with a single "click" sound instead of a double "click-click" sound like most of the pin drops. Learning that difference is the critical step to getting this trip to work. And it's not just that the subsequent pin drop is slower relative to the fast drop: it is always slow enough that you can set the pin.

The final proof is that it works. I've picked many hard and very hard locks without breaking any lockpicks, even with security<25 (i.e., where missing a single pin means starting all over again). If the speed of the pin after the fastest one was random, there is no way I'd be able to do that. --Nephele 22:35, 24 March 2007 (EDT)

Okay, so maybe I'm misunderstanding, then. Because as I understand it, I've tried hard and very hard locks like you have, and I have to make a point of saving before-hand, since I'll usually break MANY picks in the attempt. So just to be clear (and maybe this should be outlined as well on the main page to make sure nobody else is confused), are you talking about how long the pin stays up, or the speed at which it actually drops? As for the sound it makes, I've never heard a difference in sound when pushing the pins up, but since I have hearing difficulties, maybe I just don't have my volume high enough to hear it...I'll give it a try.--Robin Hood 16:07, 25 March 2007 (EDT)

I was having huge difficulty with the minigame until I tried using this tip. Although I've only tried average locks and lower, the fastest pin drop (where it does not appear to stay at the top at all, instead bouncing back down) is always followed by one slow enough to catch at the top. 24.150.83.127 09:54, 30 April 2009 (EDT)

What I've noticed is that every tumbler has its own pattern of the 3 distinguishable speeds. The pattern is not affected by the timing of the lifts. Usually the pattern has length 3 but sometimes it is only 2 and I've occasionally seen a lock with only one fall-speed. I have definitely seen: short-med-long, short-long-med, short-med, short-long. Also, when you break a pick the sequence just starts off again where it last was. Reports that there's no pattern are probably just longer cycles; I've definitely seen cases where neither a 2-pattern nor a 3 allowed me to predict. 69.166.47.137 08:33, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I've also definitely noticed the pattern: it appears to be unaffected by skill, and can be in a cycle of up to four, from my experience. I'd say the original note is right, as it has always held true for me. Most locks go in either two or three e.g. short-long or short-med-long. Therefore from my experience, it's best to tap each tumbler a few times before attempting to shut it. Apollo Quinn 10:25, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Pick BreakingEdit

I noticed on the page it said that there is no skill increase when you don't set the pin. I have to disagree with this, as I have had many occurrences of breaking a pick and having my security skill rise, as well as a friend --7ru7h 00:10, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

Any chance you've been using the auto-attempt feature? Because then it is possible that with one click you can simultaneously set one or more pins (increasing your security) but then break the lockpick. But you're still not gaining security from the broken pick; you're gaining security from the pins that were set. I know I've tested breaking picks and there was zero increase in security experience. --Nephele^Talk 00:36, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

I've obviously had those, but I'm pretty sure I remember getting them from regular pick breaking, because I rarely use the auto-attempt, mostly because it makes it too easy--~7ru7h 02:00, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

Auto-attemptEdit

Anyone know what "auto-attempt" does, exactly? How big is the chance for opening the lock with that given your skill? How big is the chance that you'll raise your security skill?

Like many people, I'm a crack at the mini-game, to the point where Security is irrelevant to my characters, and I was wondering how realistic it is to role-play this better by making the game simulate success for me. Obviously, this only works if "auto-attempt" isn't a complete dud. JRM 11:25, 10 September 2007 (EDT)

After doing some testing, it appears that Auto-Attempt gives you 1.5 experience points for each time you use it, period. It doesn't seem to make any difference at all what difficulty the lock is, or even whether or not you succeed. Yep, even a Very Hard lock done with Auto-Attempt will give just 1.5 exp, compared to the 7.5 you'd get from playing the minigame. I'll put this on the page. Shashakiro 03:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

expert and master perkEdit

I've noticed that becoming an expert only drops one pin, therefore on a Very Hard lock only the pin you were working on will drop. Becoming a master supposedly drops "no pins". If we were then to try this again on a Very Hard lock then once again only the pin you were working on will drop. The two perks really have no difference.--Repeater 13:20, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

I believe that it means at expert level, only one other pin will drop. Meaning, if you were on the fifth tumbler of a very hard lock and broke your lockpick, the fourth and fifth tumblers would drop. Whereas, at master level, no other pins will drop. So, if you were in the same position as before, only the fifth tumbler would drop. That's the difference between the two. --Lady Azura 17:46, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

This is likely a confusion with the wording of the perks; an Expert will almost always only drop the tumbler he or she is working on, except in the single situation where the player has picked four pins of a Very Hard lock and fails to pick the final one. I've clarified this in the article. Shashakiro 03:00, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Bulk lockpicks?Edit

Is there any merchant in the game who sells extremely large (say, at least 100) quantities of lockpicks at a time, and resets his/her inventory every few days? If so, buying lots of lockpicks, using Drain Security 100 on self, and then breaking all the picks using Auto-Attempt would be a very convenient way of gaining Security skill, even at high levels. 100 lockpicks would come out to 150 Security experience, which is pretty significant (at least half a point), especially given how absurdly long it normally takes to raise this skill.

I know that the Doyens sell infinite lockpicks, but they must be bought one at a time, which makes the method much less efficient. Shashakiro 17:15, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Never mind; discovered that all Thieves Guild fences sell 100 lockpicks. The method works beautifully IMO--raised my skill from 91 to 100 with it, and it's a non-major non-specialty for me, so that's a HUGE increase. I'll add it to the page. Shashakiro 18:54, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

For me, all I did was the cloning glitch. I cloned some scrolls until it reached 100+, then cloned the lockpicks. The Divine Aveneger 17:44, 01 April 2010 (EDT)

Do not clone a single lockpick, it will make the game lag alot. So if you are going to clone them clone at least a minimal of 10. Best thing to do is to buy more lockpicks but below the number of scrolls you are going to use to clone the lockpicks. For example:

Alluring Gaze scroll quantity = 20 And quantity of lockpicks you have and how much you want to clone = 10/20

First you have to press the scroll once or twice (either way, it works), then go to your lockpicks and press drop once. Exit inventory and if you look down you'll see on the groud 2 lock picks, both of them saying: Lockpick (10) take. Then go into your inventory and go see your lockpicks. Now you have 20. Rinse and repeat. The Divine Aveneger 18:02, 01 April 2010 (EDT)

Sound Bug.Edit

Occasionally when trying to pick a lock, if i do it too fast, the tumbling noise will glitch and loop. The only way to fix this is to load a save, any save. You can even save after it happens, load it, and you'll be fine. It may not be worth mentioning on the article but it is a glitch/bug (im on 360 if it matters)--SneakyPenguin77 (also my Gamertag) 02:42, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Audio GlitchEdit

During the minigame, I often hear behind me and to the right a nonexistent NPC saying "Stay! Go! What do I care?" Anyone know what this is or if it's typical at all? PS3 GOTY Edition. Stevepoppers 13:05, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

If you turn down all sound effects except for voice, you will hear a Redguard male say that when you use auto attempt. I have no idea why that happens, but I find it hilarious. --97.80.188.1 07:49, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

This happens whenever you have a follower with you. Not sure why it happens.--75.57.163.159 02:20, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

LevelingEdit

How many experience points are needed in order to level through security? It mentions the experience you obtain from doing things, but not how much is needed in order to level.

Moved from ArticleEdit

The speeds at which the tumblers fall follow a pattern for every lock. Move it up a couple of times to get feel for when the fast ones are. It takes a little longer to do it this way, but after a while you'll never need more than one lockpick.

I've moved the above text from the article because as far as I know, nothing has ever been proven conclusively in regards to the tumbler speed or pattern. ‒ Robin Hood↝talk 22:10, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

There is a pattern from what I've seen. The only problem is it changes from lock to lock.--Ghurhak gro-Demril _{or TAO}^Yes? 21:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

It's on my list of things to see if I can figure out in the game code, though it may be rather hard to determine conclusively. So far, the only thing I've seen that's reliable is that if it's slow to go up, it'll stay up for a while. – Robin Hood↝talk 02:21, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

The sound tells...Edit

It may be worth mentioning in the main article that the tumbler makes a slightly different sound when it is "good" (or when you should press "A"/"X"/"left-mouse-click" to lock it in place. BrenMan 94 04:47, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

This is already stated under Lockpicking: The Minigame -- Jplatinum16 04:53, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I see now. >.> BrenMan 94 12:37, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Arguably a better tutorial videoEdit

Hello, I think this video by Nagidal146 is more explanatory than the example video linked in the article. Do you think we could use it instead of the current one? --Zababa 14:11, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

LOCKPICKS DONT BREAKEdit

I was picking a lock once and the tumbler dropped my pick didnt break i dropped it again it didnt break every time it drops now my picks dont decrease. By the way i have the skeleton key. I was just wundrn why? JAMZZZZ — Unsigned comment by Jamz slack (talk • contribs) on 10 December 2010

That's the whole point of the Skeleton Key - it doesn't break. rpeh •T•C•E• 09:26, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh right i thoought so thanx

DrunknordEdit

Drunknord, we added that Dunbarrow Cove thing because it provides alot more oppurtunities to raise your Security Level. Dunbarrow Cove has a chest you can continuosly practice on. Why did you delete it? Shianni 01:08, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Because this is an Oblivion page, and thus should not contain information about add-ons - at least that was why I tried to remove it.--Ghurhak gro-Demril _{or TAO}^Yes? 01:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I am re-adding the info as it is about an official addon and does directly relate to training the Security skill. Edit: and after adding it I saw that someone already did add it back in another section of the page.--Ewolfg1 (talk) 14:14, 8 December 2014 (GMT)

Eternally locked door?Edit

Ijust completed the quest of Malcath. While freeing the the ogres, I only opened the middle cell in the bleak mine. When returning to the mine, i wanted to open the other cells to get to that chest in one of them. I tried to pick the locks, since i no longer seem to have the keys, and found that after tge successful completion of the minigame, the door is still locked. This is for both cells i hadn't opened during the quest. Is this normal? Also, when entering the mine during the quest I soon got a note about having freed the first group of ogres, though i hadn't actually done anything. Maybe this has something to do with the eternally locked cells?

I also always get experience when doing the minigame on these cells, like with a normal lock. (currently using them to train my security skill to 100 :P )

91.36.31.163 10:00, 17 March 2011 (UTC) Jazhara7

Lockpicking glitchEdit

(moved from the article)

There is a method to pick locks without wasting lockpicks. It only works on doors that load. Save your game right in front of the door before attempting this. Auto-attempt to pick the lock until you hear that it has been picked. Quickly, before you load into the next room, press start, it will sound like the door is opening, but it won't. Go back to the last save you made in front of the door. When it loads, you will be in the desired room. NOTE: When entering that room, there is an error that causes the room to give off the light as if you were outside, sometimes causing the screen to get very bright, or at night, very dark. Plasma and DLP TV owners be cautious.

Sounds like a cheat to me. Does it work on the PC, too? And do we really want it on the article anyway? There are already several tips for picking locks that don't rely on glitches. rpeh •T•C•E• 05:13, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

QuestionsEdit

Are locks randomized if you save before picking it will the lock act the same or diffrent if you load the save up again----Candc4, Also known as the Man Inside the Sexy Leather Pants C T 18:55, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Some locks are levelled, but the lock is decided when you enter the cell and even if you reloaded you'd still probably get the same one. --Legoless 19:06, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

so basicly you can figure the pattern of the lock the first time and load it back and loose no lockpicks----Candc4, Also known as the Man Inside the Sexy Leather Pants C T 19:14, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh, you mean the minigame. I have no idea, but I'm guessing it's completely random. --Legoless 19:28, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

BugEdit

I just encountered an odd bug. In thee minigame screen, my security skill is displayed as 24, but in my stats screen, its displayed as 26. Moreover, what drew this to my attention was that I just received the apprentice perk, suggesting that my security skill just reached 25. It's not fortified in any way, nor do I recall it ever being fortified. I do recall a time when it gave me the message that it increased and played to sound effect, but it looked as though the number in the minigame window hadn't gone up at all. At the time, I thought I had just incorrectly recalled what my skill was, but now I'm not so sure. 360 GotY, all updates.Ivan the Vandal (talk) 19:04, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Findings based on disassembly of the game engineEdit

I've been reverse-engineering Oblivion and have discovered the following things about the lockpicking system. All findings are for the latest official patch (1.2.418):

Per the article, when a lockpick breaks, some already-solved tumblers will be reset. This isn't randomized; the first (5 - n) tumblers will be reset, where n is equal to your skill mastery enum (plus one if you have a Skeleton Key in your inventory). The skill mastery enum itself is your Security skill normalized to an integer between zero and four inclusive, where the values represent stages from Novice (0) to Master (4) per the description of OBSE's ToggleSkillPerk command.

A "trespass alarm" is sent to the owner of the locked reference (identical to the SendTrespassAlarm script command) when you start picking the lock. The LockPickMenu class appears to maintain a bool (offset 0x17C within the class) tracking whether this alarm has been sent.

The player gains Security skill experience every time they solve a tumbler. However, I don't know how this is calculated; the literal call, at 0x005B0C1A, is *g_thePlayer->ModExperience(kActorVal_Security, 0, 0.0);. Presumably the zeroes indicate that some default values should be used, but I've not bothered to decode the ModExperience virtual function; I have no need to.

When the player's Security skill is displayed in the UI, it's capped to 100 (at least after a tumbler is solved; I don't know if the cap is applied when the skill is initially displayed).

When the player auto-attempts a lock, the odds of success are computed as follows (pseudocode):

   // Game settings
   default base       == 50.7
   default difficulty == 0.45
   default offset     == -4.0
   
   eax    == unsolved tumbler count (0...5)
   
   chance == (max(skill, 100) * difficulty + base) / 100
   default starting chance given a security skill of 50 == 0.732
   
   do {
      if (eax is odd) { // every other tumbler affects the final odds
         result *= chance
      }
      eax = floor(eax / 2); // for 5 unsolved tumblers, the sequence would be: 5, 2, 1, 0
      if (eax == 0)
         break;
      chance = sq(chance) // failure becomes exponentially more likely with every unsolved tumbler
   } while (true);
   if (unsolved tumbler count >= 0) { // should always be true
      result = (1 / result) * 100;
      result += offset;
   }

I'll try to remember to document any future findings here as well. Feel free to incorporate them into the article body as desired. DavidJCobb (talk) 05:19, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Function to compute auto-attempt odds is at 00548A60 if anyone wants to double-check my work; it receives as arguments the three game settings (same order I listed them in), the player's Security skill, and the number of unsolved tumblers. Reading float opcodes in cases like this can be very tricky. DavidJCobb (talk) 05:32, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

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