Lore talk:Jyggalag

Sources?Edit

Just wondering if anyone can corroborate the latest edit that says "Jyggalag will feature prominently in Shivering Isles, the expansion for Oblivion." --GuildKnight 16:03, 25 January 2007 (EST)

It is from PCGamer. The whole focus of the expanition is said to be that each eon, Jyggalag leads a clensing of a Daedra realm known as the Graymarch, this time it's Sheogorath's Realm that is to be clensed, and as the whole realm is being destroyed anyway, Sheogorath has opened up the doors for one big last mad party. Quite a bit of disscussion about Jyggalag, the greymarch and all the possabilities on the Offical Forums, in the lore section.

Thanks, I'll have to pick up a copy. I can't wait for the release! --GuildKnight 23:08, 27 January 2007 (EST)

Kinda big of a spoiler?Edit

Wouldn't the last part concerning him being Sheogorath and a champion defeating him be a rather large spoiler? Someone could be doing this, and would look for it here to get more information on him.

Well, the whole site is somewhat a spoiler, and the Lore namespace deals with the whole picture and has to tell the whole story. If you don't want that, you might want to stay in the Oblivion namespace. --Benould^•T•C 00:41, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

I know the whole site is a spoiler, but theres limits... - Lucky the Cat Guy 22:18, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

Nope, not really.Temple-Zero 22:41, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

The Lore namespace is precisely where such information belongs. Lore articles are not supposed to be written from the perspective of someone playing the game, and therefore should not make arbitrary distinctions about only providing information from before a certain point in a quest, but not after that point in the quest. Lore articles are supposed to provide a historical overview of all the events that have occurred. If you're looking for information on how to complete the Shivering Isles quests, you should be reading the quest articles or the SI article on Jyggalag, not this article. --Nephele^Talk 00:54, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

Lords of Misrule?Edit

Can anyone enlighten me as to how Jyggalag makes for for a proper daedra? As I understand it all the daedra are spawned from the aspect Chaos, so how is the daedric prince of Order a... well a daedra? I mean I could understand how he could be a representative of misrule, the preservation of order can often be detrimental to a society typically by way of stagnation. But to be considered a daedra? It doesn't make much sense to me.

Shivering Isles does not fit in with existing understandings of aedra and daedra. This further stresses the sketchy nature of these definitions. In effect: search me. Either this goes to show how little mortals understand the et'ada, or the writers of SI just didn't treat their subject matter with much care. Jygallag's exposition dialog irritates me sufficiently to suspect the latter.Temple-Zero 19:34, 29 November 2008 (EST)

correct me if im wrong but what defines a deadra is the fact that they cannot truely create life only alter it. if you recall Peryite is also concerned with order. but the order jyggalag is concerned with is cold and lifeless in which everything happens according to plan. if anything happens that violates such plan it is destroyed. in a way jyggalag creates chaos in an attempt to destroy it — Unsigned comment by 68.61.39.108 (talk) on 3 January 2009

That's a rather pedantic definition. The Daedra created their realms, didn't they? Jygallag is a Daedroth simply because he is not an Aedroth, I suppose. I still don't understand what he is supposed to be, as if SI's writers failed to grasp the simplest part of one of lore's simplest topics- Aedra=Order Daedra=Chaos. So what the heck is Daedra of order?Temple-Zero 15:02, 3 January 2009 (EST)

I'm not sure what Azura (for one) has done to imply that she's an agent of chaos. I'd also have to say that I think you're slightly missing the point about the chaos caused by order's attempt to convert everything to its nature. In any case, I think the confusion comes from the organic nature of TES lore: quite simply, nobody can be sure of what an entity's nature or purpose is because they change so often through the series. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 16:04, 3 January 2009 (EST)

No, see, the Daedra represent the extremes of everything. Sanguine is the extremes of passion and indulgence, Sheogorath of insanity, Jygalagg of order, etc. Signed, The Man who has to much time on his hands 65.189.241.103 22:06, 12 February 2009 (EST)

I like to see Jygalagg as an Anuic Daedra, in the same sense Lorkhan is a Padomaic Aedra (unless you choose to follow Camoran's twisted logic on the matter).

As On Oblivion has been saying since Daggerfall: "From my experience, Daedra are a very mixed lot. It is almost impossible to categorize them as a whole except for their immense power and penchant for extremism." So it seems a little unfair, Temple-Zero, to criticise SI for...well, making Jyggalag an extremist. :/ --62.30.222.230 03:54, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

It's a matter of taste. That vision of the Daedra seems consistent with the SI Dyus and Haskill Interview in that it shows the Daedra as too chaotic and mysterious for mortals to understand. In effect, don't try to make sense of them because you can't. Well, in my opinion that is a cop-out. I like to have at least one compelling, orderly vision of a subject, even if it is a mistaken one. SI may suggest that our prior understanding of Oblivion was superficial, juvenile and downright incorrect, but it didn't offer a good story to replace the old version, however inaccurate. I see that as the wrong kind of mystery. I was more attached to older opinions of the Daedra because if they act as Jygallag says they do, then they really don't have an important connection to Mundus at all. If they are wholly unrelated to the mortal plane and unlimited in their actions and powers, then I don't see any reason to care about them. They are just powerful aliens.Temple-Zero 15:30, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

Meh, our mileage varies. As extremists they're dangerous by nature, and a vested interest in the world certainly makes them something to care about. I personally find they make for a more diverse set of enemies than chaotic devotees, while also including a nice moral aspect, as they're not all guaranteed to be out to cause the most chaos possible. Really, there seems to be more reason to care about them than there is for the Nine Divines. And as I quoted from On Oblivion, it's nothing to do with SI; the series has been saying they're largely enigmatic to mortals since Daggerfall. In the end, don't forget that this is basically religion. There are plenty of real world religions out there with supernatural orders of beings with much the same nature, lacking the dichotomy of good/evil or order/chaos. --62.30.222.230 05:28, 18 April 2009 (EDT)

To answer your question as best I can, Temple-Zero, Jygallag is supposed to be the order side of Sheogorath, while Sheogorath should(?) be the side of chaos. One only rules for so long till the day comes for the other to show its face! Remember that Sheogorath hides in him the two sides of Shivering Isles; Mania and Dementia! Thus making him two sides of a whole... which is just as close to saying order anyways, as it's a cycle!Cookies... lots and lots of cookies!!! 05:39, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

well correct me if i am wrong. but isnt sheogorath and by extension jyggalags origins imply that he wasnt born a deadra. and last i checked the difference beetween a deadra and an aedra was the fact that the adrea created he concrete universe. and the deadra created a more chaotic and less stable universe

well the answer is quite simple. the creation of the tes universe started with sithis(nothing) and then created the 2 opposing forces, Padomay and Anu. they then created beings known as gods. Lorkhan, a padomic being, tricked many of the deities into giving up their immortality to create Nirn, the physical plane, and men and mer. The ones who survived are known as Aedra(meaning ancestors or creators) while the ones who weren't tricked were known as daedra(meaning non-ancestors or non-creators). mostly the anuic gods were tricked, while many pandomic dieties were not.Vladashram 02:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, by in-game book standerds you are right, and the fact alone is that, though not noted commenly throughout SI, Sheogorath is supposed to house at least two of three personalities; anger and delight, while the third is in the middle somewhere. In a way, Sheogorath is a Yin-Yang figure of both Aedra and Daedra, order and chaos, anger and delight, dementia and mania!Cookies... lots and lots of cookies!!! 05:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

From the best of what I can understand, Aedra and Daedra were all originally the same spirits that existed before the creation of Nirn. The only difference is that the Aedra were the spirits that were tricked by Lorkhan to give up their divinity (and immortality)to create Nirn while the Daedra were the spirits that had nothing to do with the creation of Nirn. So if Akatosh didn't give up his amazing god powers to help create Nirn, then he would probably be considered the Daedric Prince of Time. — Unsigned comment by 173.69.138.111 (talk) at 21:51 on January 4, 2012

PriestsEdit

Is it ever mentioned what becomes of these volunteers after the Greymarch succeeds? Are they made into Dremora? Do they die? --173.206.31.206 07:50, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I think they become knights but im not sure, verification is required Kylogorath 15:46, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Probably just like the Mythic Dawn followers, the priests get small towns and lands to themselves. --Arch-Mage Matt ^{Did I Do That?} 15:48, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Jyggalag Shrine?Edit

Why hasn't he got his own shrine and followers in Cyrodill? I cant find one, even after using the code 'tmm' to check all locations... Kylogorath 15:41, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

From an in-game point of view... he was cursed. He can only appear for about a day every hundred years, so it's not like his followers can exactly get any response if they prey to him. --Arch-Mage Matt ^{Did I Do That?} 15:43, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

And besides they would still be honering him through Sheogorath as Jygallag is the order side to him...Cookies... lots and lots of cookies!!! 05:43, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

But shouldn't he have his own set of fanatics? And I don't think worshipping the Mad-God would really count as worshipping the Master of Order, they are the same, I know, but they are opposites. If i'm just being naive because I want to stick to my opinion, just let me know XD... Kylogorath 18:22, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

What are the Knights of Order then if not Jygagalag's Fanatics? Also how about the Heretics? Don't they worship Jyggalag?--TAO^Huh? 18:26, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Jyggalag only appears once in every era, so worshiping him would be particularly pointless. The other daedra were much more active, and (for instance) handed out artifacts to the worthy. Why bother worshiping something that never does anything? Although that doesn't stop real-world religion, I admit. rpeh •T•C•E• 18:57, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

TAO: The Knights are Jyggalag's creations, and are mindless it would be like saying Clannfear worship Mehrunes Dagon. And Heretecs just hate Sheogorath - they don't worship Jyggalag. The Priests of Order would be the only worshippers.

And a random shrine out in the wilderness? It doesn't seem very ordered or orginized to me ... --Arch-Mage Matt ^{Did I Do That?} 19:17, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, I wouldn't be so sure that the knights are "followers" in the strictest sense. Kiliban Nyrandil tells you "Those "beings" as you call them aren't beings at all. They are the soulless abominations known as the Knights of Order." and "There isn't much more to say about these soulless creatures. No one knows why they invade or where they're from, but they aren't from the Isles." Sheogorath implies they come from nothing (or at least, the Obelisks): "A little chanting, a little ritual, and POOF! Knights of Order." - and there's a rumor to the same effect: "Knights of Order have appeared in the Isles. I hear they come from the obelisks." It seems more likely to me that they are crystallisations of order itself. rpeh •T•C•E• 19:57, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Jyggalag ObjectEdit

I was doing the crusader's quest, and by the helm that you get in Vanua. I saw in the jewelry box Jyggalag, so I took it. Later I dropped it, and Jyggalag came out. He went through the speaking parts. He even said Atlast, I have been defeated. thank you. that thing I got the achievment for mad god and All, but idk how he was and I figured. I could spawn him in the city? Can anyone look into this, I have recreated this problem. I'm running a slightly modded Xbox Game. And His object looks like a green box. I can't repick him up.

It is most likely because you are running on a modded Xbox game, which is illeagal and can't be discussed farthur. --Arch-Mage Matt ^{Did I Do That?} 23:53, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Jyggalag vs peryite?Edit

Really, i still don't understand the difference between them, what is order of jyggalag stand for and what is peryite's? Can someone please tell me?117.4.241.255 06:58, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

I would have to say that Peryite's order is in the sense of neatness and efficiency, while Jyggalag's order I see more as complete domination and control to create a society. But Jyggalag is not discussed much until his appearance in Shivering Isles. --DKong27 ^{Talk Cont} 21:03, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Peryite's sphere is rather obscure and unclear but in the main part it seems to relate to Oblivion specifically, as he's said to be responsible for ordering its lowest levels. Exactly what that means is a mystery but I'd guess it's important to the nature of Oblivion in some way, or else it wouldn't be the domain of such a major figure as one of the 16 Daedra Lords. Jyggalag on the other hand represents a broader, more universal kind of Order, an all-encompassing stasis. — Unsigned comment by 2.25.251.113 (talk) at 03:51 on 13 November 2011

Peryite is known as the puss in the wound, ie making right the wrongs, he is about the natural order of the universe, all swirly lines and colours and fibonacci's sequences, while jyggalag is about pure order, straight lines, and one shade of gray, peryite listens to beautiful music while jyggalag doesn't see the point in music — Unsigned comment by 90.221.128.221 (talk) at 17:00 on 28 April 2012

From my understanding Sheogorath and Jyggalag are two separate beings but they are the same Daedra, the Prince(s) of Madness. Jyggalag claims he is the Prince of Order but he is just one aspect of Madness. Sheo' represents Bi-polar disease or if you want to use the old name Maniac-Depression. Jyggalag on the other-hand represents the often overlooked madness that is Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Like many people that suffer from OCD, Jyggalag does not realise that he is mad. Therefore Peryite would be the true Daedric Prince of Order while Jyggalag is a Daedric Prince of Madness that represents the madness of order.--Pin-Pin-Ire 15:34, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Nice comment pin pin, that actually makes sense in a way; though his official title is still "prince of order" rather than "prince of Madness". Peryite is actually the prince of pestilence, so maybe he also became prince of order to fill the space made by jyggalag after he was cursed. Mr.Scryer. 15:32, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

In Oblivion, Peryite asks you to save his trapped followers and when you succeed he says that "perfect order has been restored" (or something like that) which to me sounds more like the natural order of the universe, such as pestilence restoring order to a habitat. Jyggalag is order more in the sense of 1's and 0's and symmetry. RIM 16:13, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Peryite's dialogue suggests he's more concerned with maintaining some sort of cosmic balance like a "Everything will work itself out in the end" kind of thing. His association with plagues suggest it's not always neat and tidy though. His sphere of ordering the lower ranks of Oblivion and title of "Taskmaster" suggests he's about hierarchy, rules, procedures, kings and generals. Appearing as a dragon backs that up. I think Jyggalag should've been called the Prince of Logic to avoid confusion. He seems more about cold hard logic, facts and math and I think his robot-like daedra are meant to carry that point across. 173.73.159.61 18:56, 21 November 2012 (GMT)

Jyggalag is about absolute order, not just logic. He wants all to stay in line, absolute following and absolute obedience. Logic doesn't really fit all the criteria of his sphere. He is a supposed polar opposite to Sheogorath, who is about madness.--Br3admax (talk) 19:02, 21 November 2012 (GMT)

Jyggalag isn't free.Edit

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2015/06/12/loremasters-archive-an-interview-with-haskill

This suggests that since Haskill is a remnant from a previous hero mantling Sheogorath during a previous Greymarch , as the HoK did, that Jyggalag isn't free. This is because there is no difference between this Greymarch and any previous one, as far as we know. — Unsigned comment by 70.208.138.78 (talk) at 11:57 on 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I would say take ESO lore with a grain of salt. They started it off flat out saying they're skewing established canon to create the story and setting for the MMO, while similarly they just blatantly ripped off large portions of previous games rather than creating anything new; the very nature of the "Planemeld" is just Oblivion all over again, with even a similar - if not verbatim - ending to the main quest plotline. Zenimax Online's authority of lore feels shady at best; ESO often just feels like officially licensed fan fiction than anything, and it's likely they can only confirm canon within the confines of the MMO's setting, not in the lore overall. It's obviously declared legit by even Bethesda themselves, but given the deliberate ambiguity of TES lore, it's shaky ground taking anything based on face value to begin with, but in the case of ESO content, it's even less easy to accept. I can't say ZO has been courteous with Bethesda's two decades worth of lore content as it is.

Ultimately, it's also hard to gauge whether or not this truly applies to Oblivion's ending, as all ESO content is eight hundred years prior. I doubt they can really say what's become of the main series as well, as said prior, they can likely only govern the game, not the story overall; even if Haskill is a prior mortal who was cloaked in Sheogorath, the Hero of Kvatch's actions can still be different from whatever occurred with Haskill. Personally, I would think that the Hero of Kvatch's difference is in giving Sheogorath his own true form, effectively perishing as Sheo took over their soul and molded the body to his liking.

But with the lack of Jyggalag in Skyrim, it's hard to really say. Skyrim's story made no point either way on the matter, and the next TES game isn't for another few years, which is the closest to a proper answer as we may get, if that game even includes anything. We know Jyggalag is free to roam Oblivion separate from Sheogorath, so there's no reason to suspect that they're still the same entity or that Jyggalag isn't free. Myrthuil (talk) 11:23, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Regardless of your personal feelings about ESO, it has been confirmed as official canon, so the anon is entirely correct. This article simply hasn't been updated yet. If you'd like to discuss your opinions on ESO's lore, you might want to do so on the forums, since our lore articles consider it to be fact. —Legoless (talk) 13:48, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Worship by the Dunmer?Edit

I was reading the Lore page on Gods, and it lists "Grey Prince" among the Dunmeric deities. How's that? Are there any sources? Shouldn't it be mentioned somewhere on the page here? --87.255.89.160 21:20, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Jyg being listed there doesn't necessarily mean the Dunmer revere him and have temples to him, it just means they're one of the few races that recognize him as a god. This mostly comes from The Truth in Sequence: Volume 3, which is cited in the second paragraph; this paragraph is basically dedicated to covering the Clockwork Apostle (Dunmer) view on him. Hope this clears things up :) The Rim of the Sky (talk) 22:17, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

There is a contraband item that does seem to imply or suggest that there is some manner of worship for Jyggalag found amongst the Clockwork City Inhabitants but its considered Heretical. But what we have is vague at best on this daedric prince as there is only so many lore snippets they have done in ESO. The biggest mentions of the Gray Prince of Order is in that one book series Truth in Sequence. Which suggests only Jyggalag knew his nature and went mad because of it. So there is at least some knowledge of the Daedric Prince in the Clockwork City in addition to heretical clockwork figurines of Jyggalag. To at least know they have their own beliefs about the Daedric Prince and his descent into madness. TheVampKnight (talk) 22:46, 14 June 2022 (UTC)